Author Topic: Trapped in Nature  (Read 5973 times)

Sriram

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Trapped in Nature
« on: July 24, 2021, 06:24:44 AM »
Hi everyone,

Theists usually think that God created the world and governs it entirely in his wisdom.  However, we find lots of things in the world that are evil and which draw us away from godly behavior. Nothing 'divine' about many earthly features.

According to Hindu Samkhya philosophy which is probably one of the oldest philosophies in the world.....the Spirit is trapped in Nature and tries to extricate itself from it. There is no God Almighty in this philosophy. Our attempts at spiritual growth (through religious or secular means) are our attempts to liberate ourselves from Nature and its laws. This is the theory behind the practice of Yoga....though many schools of Yoga are theistic.

According to some schools of gnosticism...the universe is created not by God the Almighty but by a Demiurge (a lesser god) who tries to trap our spirits in unholy things. (Though, how God Almighty can allow any lesser god such liberties....is not clear). 

Just some thoughts.

Sriram   

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2021, 10:56:17 AM »
Hi everyone,

Theists usually think that God created the world and governs it entirely in his wisdom.  However, we find lots of things in the world that are evil and which draw us away from godly behavior. Nothing 'divine' about many earthly features.

According to Hindu Samkhya philosophy which is probably one of the oldest philosophies in the world.....the Spirit is trapped in Nature and tries to extricate itself from it. There is no God Almighty in this philosophy. Our attempts at spiritual growth (through religious or secular means) are our attempts to liberate ourselves from Nature and its laws. This is the theory behind the practice of Yoga....though many schools of Yoga are theistic.

According to some schools of gnosticism...the universe is created not by God the Almighty but by a Demiurge (a lesser god) who tries to trap our spirits in unholy things. (Though, how God Almighty can allow any lesser god such liberties....is not clear). 

Just some thoughts.

Sriram
An interesting way of describing this philosophy.

However, I would have thought that rather than trying to liberate ourselves from Nature and its laws we should be trying to live in harmony with nature and its laws. Our current challenges on climate change suggest that when we try to see ourselves as being outside of nature then things don't go well for the planet and ultimately for us.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2021, 11:04:12 AM »
Sriram,

Quote
Theists usually think that God created the world and governs it entirely in his wisdom.  However, we find lots of things in the world that are evil and which draw us away from godly behavior. Nothing 'divine' about many earthly features.

According to Hindu Samkhya philosophy which is probably one of the oldest philosophies in the world.....the Spirit is trapped in Nature and tries to extricate itself from it. There is no God Almighty in this philosophy. Our attempts at spiritual growth (through religious or secular means) are our attempts to liberate ourselves from Nature and its laws. This is the theory behind the practice of Yoga....though many schools of Yoga are theistic.

According to some schools of gnosticism...the universe is created not by God the Almighty but by a Demiurge (a lesser god) who tries to trap our spirits in unholy things. (Though, how God Almighty can allow any lesser god such liberties....is not clear).

Just some thoughts.

The African Bushongo tribe believe that one god of their gods, Bumba, had a terrible stomach ache. At that time the world was only darkness and emptiness. Eventually unable to bear the pain any longer Bumba vomited up the sun. Then came the moon, the stars, animals, plants, and finally humans. Thus, but for indigestion the Boshongo believe we wouldn't be here.

Just some thoughts.

PS Your use of “philosophy” is pushing it a bit. You’d be better advised sticking to “creation myths” or similar. 
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Enki

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2021, 12:06:10 PM »
Hi everyone,

Theists usually think that God created the world and governs it entirely in his wisdom.  However, we find lots of things in the world that are evil and which draw us away from godly behavior. Nothing 'divine' about many earthly features.

Perhaps, but this posits the problem of what the word evil means in this context and also assumes that godly behaviour is necessarily good, whatever that may mean. There is also an interesting assumption that there are some earthly  'divine' features, again without any clarity as to what these features are.

Quote
According to Hindu Samkhya philosophy which is probably one of the oldest philosophies in the world.....the Spirit is trapped in Nature and tries to extricate itself from it. There is no God Almighty in this philosophy. Our attempts at spiritual growth (through religious or secular means) are our attempts to liberate ourselves from Nature and its laws. This is the theory behind the practice of Yoga....though many schools of Yoga are theistic.

 An interesting philosophy, but not one which I personally find any evidence for and therefore not one which I would support. Generally, in the west, many of the techniques of yoga have been successfully assimilated and embellished without any particular adherence to this philosophy.

Quote
According to some schools of gnosticism...the universe is created not by God the Almighty but by a Demiurge (a lesser god) who tries to trap our spirits in unholy things. (Though, how God Almighty can allow any lesser god such liberties....is not clear). 

Just some thoughts.

Sriram

Yes, but let's not forget that the gnostic view of the demiurge had its origins in the Platonic view as expressed in Timaeus where the demiurge was like a benevolent divine craftsman, rather than a malevolent entity.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2021, 01:55:59 PM »
Sriram,

The African Bushongo tribe believe that one god of their gods, Bumba, had a terrible stomach ache. At that time the world was only darkness and emptiness. Eventually unable to bear the pain any longer Bumba vomited up the sun. Then came the moon, the stars, animals, plants, and finally humans.
That explains the number of sick bastards.

Sriram

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2021, 02:04:05 PM »
An interesting way of describing this philosophy.

However, I would have thought that rather than trying to liberate ourselves from Nature and its laws we should be trying to live in harmony with nature and its laws. Our current challenges on climate change suggest that when we try to see ourselves as being outside of nature then things don't go well for the planet and ultimately for us.


Both Samkhya and Yoga not only offer an explanation for life and its motivations....they also try to promote harmony with nature and teach a non-violent and simple lifestyle.  It is modern lifestyle, materialism and greed that have created the present situation of destruction of our eco system.

Bramble

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2021, 02:05:23 PM »
Hi everyone,

Theists usually think that God created the world and governs it entirely in his wisdom.  However, we find lots of things in the world that are evil and which draw us away from godly behavior. Nothing 'divine' about many earthly features.

According to Hindu Samkhya philosophy which is probably one of the oldest philosophies in the world.....the Spirit is trapped in Nature and tries to extricate itself from it. There is no God Almighty in this philosophy. Our attempts at spiritual growth (through religious or secular means) are our attempts to liberate ourselves from Nature and its laws. This is the theory behind the practice of Yoga....though many schools of Yoga are theistic.

According to some schools of gnosticism...the universe is created not by God the Almighty but by a Demiurge (a lesser god) who tries to trap our spirits in unholy things. (Though, how God Almighty can allow any lesser god such liberties....is not clear). 

Just some thoughts.

Sriram

Such 'philosophies' are presumably expressions of a feeling of alienation from the world, a denial of our animal nature, and an attempt to make sense of this loss of belonging by embedding it in a story. The stories themselves are perhaps less interesting than the underlying alienation. Did humans always feel like this and, if not, when and why did the alienation begin? And are the beliefs and practices designed to facilitate corporeal escapology ultimately part of a solution or just another instance of the problem?


ekim

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2021, 02:06:36 PM »
An interesting way of describing this philosophy.

However, I would have thought that rather than trying to liberate ourselves from Nature and its laws we should be trying to live in harmony with nature and its laws. Our current challenges on climate change suggest that when we try to see ourselves as being outside of nature then things don't go well for the planet and ultimately for us.
It might have been better to have described the philosophies as providing methods to be free from the excesses of human nature with its egotistical drives that result in air pollution, water pollution, land pollution and mind pollution.  Transcending that nature is possibly seen as the means of living in harmony with the world rather than attempting to make the world fit the human requirement, a bit like a wind surfer doesn't seek to alter the wind and water but learns a harmonious balancing within those forces.

Sriram

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2021, 02:31:31 PM »
Such 'philosophies' are presumably expressions of a feeling of alienation from the world, a denial of our animal nature, and an attempt to make sense of this loss of belonging by embedding it in a story. The stories themselves are perhaps less interesting than the underlying alienation. Did humans always feel like this and, if not, when and why did the alienation begin? And are the beliefs and practices designed to facilitate corporeal escapology ultimately part of a solution or just another instance of the problem?

It is our identification with the animal world that encourages selfish tendencies and a mad desire to seek never ending comforts and self gratification.

Samkhya, Yoga and other such philosophies on the other hand, teach us to overcome our animal nature and to  develop self control and mental equanimity. 

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2021, 03:10:34 PM »
It might have been better to have described the philosophies as providing methods to be free from the excesses of human nature with its egotistical drives that result in air pollution, water pollution, land pollution and mind pollution.
Which is pretty well the opposite of what Sriram claimed in the OP.

Transcending that nature is possibly seen as the means of living in harmony with the world rather than attempting to make the world fit the human requirement, a bit like a wind surfer doesn't seek to alter the wind and water but learns a harmonious balancing within those forces.
Wouldn't disagree with that, but none of this requires a god - indeed I'd argue that is is easier for humans to focus on their relationship with the natural world if they are not distracted by their relationship with a purported 'god', which let's face it is merely another manifestation of the human ego.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2021, 04:27:49 PM by ProfessorDavey »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2021, 03:12:47 PM »
Which is pretty well the opposite of what you claimed in the OP.
 
ekim isn't Sriram

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2021, 03:45:32 PM »
NS,

Quote
ekim isn't Sriram

No, but he is Sriram with GCSEs...
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2021, 04:01:34 PM »
NS,

No, but he is Sriram with GCSEs...
That seems unfair on both, especially given one can be a professor and not be able to read to whom you are replying

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2021, 04:13:04 PM »
NS,

Quote
That seems unfair on both, especially given one can be a professor and not be able to read to whom you are replying

Perhaps – I was merely suggesting that ekim's reasoning is more sophisticated than Sriram's, rather than criticising a level of academic attainment.   
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2021, 04:27:14 PM »
ekim isn't Sriram
Whoops - guilty as charged.

I've amended my post to make it clear that the person I responded to isn't the author of the OP.

Bramble

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2021, 04:57:08 PM »
It is our identification with the animal world that encourages selfish tendencies and a mad desire to seek never ending comforts and self gratification.

In case you hadn't noticed, Sriram, we are animals. What would you suggest we identified with? Tulips, perhaps?

Do animals have a mad desire to seek never ending comforts and self gratification? I can't say I'd noticed. That sounds more like a description of people who haven't found peace with themselves, perhaps because they're suffering from the kind of internal conflict I imagine would arise from warring with ones own (animal) nature.


Nearly Sane

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2021, 05:05:29 PM »
Whoops - guilty as charged.

I've amended my post to make it clear that the person I responded to isn't the author of the OP.
Can happen to us all

ekim

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2021, 05:44:45 PM »
Which is pretty well the opposite of what Sriram claimed in the OP.
Wouldn't disagree with that, but none of this requires a god - indeed I'd argue that is is easier for humans to focus on their relationship with the natural world if they are not distracted by their relationship with a purported 'god', which let's face it is merely another manifestation of the human ego.
Quite some time ago I suggested to Sriram that he might be better off using Hindu philosophy terms with their explanation rather than Biblical terms like God and Spirit as it is likely to add more confusion, but he didn't want to.  The Biblical God certainly seems to be presented as an anthropic projection.  Focusing on the natural world may help, if it's not too late, but giving up worshipping the great God Consumerism and his wife the Goddess Costa Brava might be too much of a challenge.

Sriram

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2021, 07:24:06 AM »
Quite some time ago I suggested to Sriram that he might be better off using Hindu philosophy terms with their explanation rather than Biblical terms like God and Spirit as it is likely to add more confusion, but he didn't want to.  The Biblical God certainly seems to be presented as an anthropic projection.  Focusing on the natural world may help, if it's not too late, but giving up worshipping the great God Consumerism and his wife the Goddess Costa Brava might be too much of a challenge.


Hi ekim,

I don't mind discussing Hindu philosophies in themselves. But I don't want to focus on Hindu philosophies in general discussions about spirituality here. Most people here have no idea of these theories and will be either scornful or completely alienated.  The 'religion vs science' mindset is still strong among people here and they are unable to view such matters in a secular and unbiased manner.

My point is to find fringe areas in science that are generally glossed over by mainstream scientists....and see if they offer clues and meeting points for spirituality.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2019/10/19/science-helps-in-understanding-spirituality/

ekim

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2021, 09:19:48 AM »

Hi ekim,

I don't mind discussing Hindu philosophies in themselves. But I don't want to focus on Hindu philosophies in general discussions about spirituality here. Most people here have no idea of these theories and will be either scornful or completely alienated.  The 'religion vs science' mindset is still strong among people here and they are unable to view such matters in a secular and unbiased manner.

My point is to find fringe areas in science that are generally glossed over by mainstream scientists....and see if they offer clues and meeting points for spirituality.

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2019/10/19/science-helps-in-understanding-spirituality/

Hi Sriram

OK.  Bear in mind, though, that there are many religions and forms of spirituality and basically one tried and tested scientific method.  I'm not sure how you would get them to meet without more clarity of what forms you are investigating.  Best of luck anyway.

Sriram

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2021, 10:47:38 AM »
Hi Sriram

OK.  Bear in mind, though, that there are many religions and forms of spirituality and basically one tried and tested scientific method.  I'm not sure how you would get them to meet without more clarity of what forms you are investigating.  Best of luck anyway.


There are many cultures and each of them has its own individual way of perceiving spirituality.....but the essence is the same. The way people grow spiritually and the inner mechanisms are also the same. 

Its like there are many different types of cuisine in the world but the basic ingredients are the same and the process of digestion and assimilation are also the same.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2021, 12:02:53 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
There are many cultures and each of them has its own individual way of perceiving spirituality.....but the essence is the same. The way people grow spiritually and the inner mechanisms are also the same.

Its like there are many different types of cuisine in the world but the basic ingredients are the same and the process of digestion and assimilation are also the same.

That only works of the foods involved are ambrosia, peaches of immortality and manna.

If you want to claim “spirituality” as a phenomenon then you need to tell us what you mean by it and then explain how you’d verify it. For what it’s worth, my experience of people who try the “I’m spiritual I am” line is that what they actually mean is that they have a head full of mindless platitudes (“everything happens for a reason” etc).
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Bramble

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2021, 02:12:12 PM »

There are many cultures and each of them has its own individual way of perceiving spirituality.....but the essence is the same. The way people grow spiritually and the inner mechanisms are also the same. 

Its like there are many different types of cuisine in the world but the basic ingredients are the same and the process of digestion and assimilation are also the same.

If you look at the many varieties of ‘spirituality’ from the point of view of their sameness then this is what you will find. If you look at them from the perspective of their clear differences then you’ll get a very different picture. We tend to see what we want to see, and appealing to some alleged universality has obvious merit for those seeking to validate their own beliefs.

It isn’t difficult to find family resemblances among the major religions but belief by its very nature suggests a certain fixity of mind that reifies difference and privileges its own view. When it comes to ‘spirituality’ things get much more complicated because it’s almost impossible to say what it is. I tried looking up definitions of the word and soon got lost. The first one I came to defined it as ‘the quality of being concerned with the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.’ The next described it as  the ‘recognition of a feeling or sense or belief that there is something greater than myself.’ Other definitions focussed more on values, meaning and connection. We probably all have a sense of the limits within which the term normally operates but that’s likely as far as we would agree.

Identifying some unifying ‘essence’ to spirituality is much harder. Some approaches explicitly refute the very notion that things even have an essence. So if you want to argue that your understanding of spirituality is common to all its forms you might find you need to trim the unruly spiritual shrub rather hard until it conforms to the contours of your own beliefs, by which time it will no longer be able to lay claim to any universal shape.

It seems to me you can argue that spirituality is relevant and applicable to everyone - and I think people who take the word seriously do generally believe this - only if you don’t put your own limits on what it means, which I think would exclude any attempt to locate an essence. For example, approaches that involve dualism or marginalise sensory experience or the so-called material world simply make spirituality irrelevant and meaningless to many people. If those approaches are essential to spirituality then the whole idea simply collapses and it becomes a peculiar preoccupation relevant only to a certain kind of person. I’m afraid the kind of discussions that typically occur here take us down that particular route.


Udayana

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2021, 04:49:27 PM »
...
According to Hindu Samkhya philosophy which is probably one of the oldest philosophies in the world.....the Spirit is trapped in Nature and tries to extricate itself from it. There is no God Almighty in this philosophy. Our attempts at spiritual growth (through religious or secular means) are our attempts to liberate ourselves from Nature and its laws. This is the theory behind the practice of Yoga....though many schools of Yoga are theistic.
...

Are you sure that "nature" is not our way of freeing ourselves from being trapped by  tedious and pointless "spirituality"? If so, how would you show this? And, yoga could be a joining with nature, not a rejection of it.

We can play at metaphysics all day or night with such terms since they have no shared  meaning.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Udayana

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Re: Trapped in Nature
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2021, 04:55:34 PM »
...
The African Bushongo tribe believe that one god of their gods, Bumba, had a terrible stomach ache. At that time the world was only darkness and emptiness. Eventually unable to bear the pain any longer Bumba vomited up the sun. Then came the moon, the stars, animals, plants, and finally humans. Thus, but for indigestion the Boshongo believe we wouldn't be here.

Just some thoughts.
...

That is more like it ... of-course Bumba is the name, in Bushongo, for the white hole at the origin of this universe.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now