Author Topic: Donald Hoffman: The Case Against Reality  (Read 1410 times)

bluehillside Retd.

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Donald Hoffman: The Case Against Reality
« on: July 30, 2021, 06:58:09 PM »
Fascinating interview with cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HFFr0-ybg0

His theory is that “reality” is just the interfaces evolution has given us, just as an e-mail icon on a computer screen is an interface rather than the e-mail itself.


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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Donald Hoffman: The Case Against Reality
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2021, 07:15:13 AM »
Fascinating interview with cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HFFr0-ybg0

His theory is that “reality” is just the interfaces evolution has given us, just as an e-mail icon on a computer screen is an interface rather than the e-mail itself.
Hmm mmmmmm. Little minicontroller looking at an interface? I never associated you with that sort of thing.

SusanDoris

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Re: Donald Hoffman: The Case Against Reality
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2021, 08:15:32 AM »
Fascinating interview with cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HFFr0-ybg0

His theory is that “reality” is just the interfaces evolution has given us, just as an e-mail icon on a computer screen is an interface rather than the e-mail itself.
I have listened to it all and it is of course compulsive and very interesting listening. The woo-ist types on 'GH forum tend to quote him as showing that we are living in a simulation etc.  They triumphantly quote him and his books as evidence of that and their other illogical views! I have followed other interviews with him and he is evidently and justifiably treated with great respect by scientists, but my opinion is that he has headed too far in a direction that leads nowhere and probably to confusion. If I was younger and had the time, I would get a transcript of that video and go through it querying points as I go along, particularly  this idea that things are only there if observed etc.

He is extremely clever, no doubt about that! He talks really well and I certainly had to listen right the way through, but and who am I to question any of his contributions to science, but he's missing something ... ... ... I don't know what it is though.

Maybe it is reality ... ...
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Sriram

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Re: Donald Hoffman: The Case Against Reality
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2021, 08:57:29 AM »


Two earlier threads...Nature of Reality and Tree in a Forest...on the same subject....

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=16814.0

http://www.religionethics.co.uk/index.php?topic=16937.0

Stranger

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Re: Donald Hoffman: The Case Against Reality
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2021, 09:26:37 AM »
His theory is that “reality” is just the interfaces evolution has given us, just as an e-mail icon on a computer screen is an interface rather than the e-mail itself.

Watched part of this but realised I've been there before. Firstly, it's self-defeating. If reality is just a user interface and not actually real, then using things like evolution and quantum mechanics, i.e. things we've learned about 'reality', to justify that conclusion, tends to undermine the basis of his point.

It also strikes me as 'odd' (unbelievable) that a user interface would be so detailed that we could derive things like evolution and QM from it. Much of it seems to go way beyond any relevance to survival. Why would it even contain anything we can't directly perceive with our senses; radio-waves, spectral lines in starlight, fossils in the ground, the CMB, and so on? If you started to investigate an actual desktop UI (believing it to be real) in more detail than you could see (directly perceive), you wouldn't find complicated stuff, you'd find it was made out of simple pixels. It wouldn't be any more complicated than it needed to be to be useful for survival and directly perceivable to our senses.

What would be the survival advantage of perceiving the structure of our brains (which he directly suggests is part of the interface) and correlations between stimulations it with magnets and what happens to the rest of the user interface? Why would that be part of a simplified interface whose sole purpose was our survival?
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SusanDoris

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Re: Donald Hoffman: The Case Against Reality
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2021, 11:16:05 AM »
Watched part of this but realised I've been there before. Firstly, it's self-defeating. If reality is just a user interface and not actually real, then using things like evolution and quantum mechanics, i.e. things we've learned about 'reality', to justify that conclusion, tends to undermine the basis of his point.

It also strikes me as 'odd' (unbelievable) that a user interface would be so detailed that we could derive things like evolution and QM from it. Much of it seems to go way beyond any relevance to survival. Why would it even contain anything we can't directly perceive with our senses; radio-waves, spectral lines in starlight, fossils in the ground, the CMB, and so on? If you started to investigate an actual desktop UI (believing it to be real) in more detail than you could see (directly perceive), you wouldn't find complicated stuff, you'd find it was made out of simple pixels. It wouldn't be any more complicated than it needed to be to be useful for survival and directly perceivable to our senses.

What would be the survival advantage of perceiving the structure of our brains (which he directly suggests is part of the interface) and correlations between stimulations it with magnets and what happens to the rest of the user interface? Why would that be part of a simplified interface whose sole purpose was our survival?
People talk about going down rabbit holes, but I wonder rather whether Prof Hoffmann has created a new type of rabbit hole - and perhaps is sort of trapped in his own super cleverness! that is how he has come across to me anyway, when I have listened to him speaking. As I more or less said above, I'd like to pick it all apart.
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Donald Hoffman: The Case Against Reality
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2021, 11:57:50 AM »
NS,

Quote
Watched part of this but realised I've been there before. Firstly, it's self-defeating. If reality is just a user interface and not actually real, then using things like evolution and quantum mechanics, i.e. things we've learned about 'reality', to justify that conclusion, tends to undermine the basis of his point.

It also strikes me as 'odd' (unbelievable) that a user interface would be so detailed that we could derive things like evolution and QM from it. Much of it seems to go way beyond any relevance to survival. Why would it even contain anything we can't directly perceive with our senses; radio-waves, spectral lines in starlight, fossils in the ground, the CMB, and so on? If you started to investigate an actual desktop UI (believing it to be real) in more detail than you could see (directly perceive), you wouldn't find complicated stuff, you'd find it was made out of simple pixels. It wouldn't be any more complicated than it needed to be to be useful for survival and directly perceivable to our senses.

What would be the survival advantage of perceiving the structure of our brains (which he directly suggests is part of the interface) and correlations between stimulations it with magnets and what happens to the rest of the user interface? Why would that be part of a simplified interface whose sole purpose was our survival?

Fair points all - thanks for making them. I'm not an advocate of his at all, but I hadn't seen his thesis before and thought it was interesting. I suspect the woo merchants would find succour in it too, which doesn't help.   
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SusanDoris

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Re: Donald Hoffman: The Case Against Reality
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2021, 12:53:29 PM »
I suppose some might say he has a certain charisma and certainy his voice is pleasant to listen to and he does not um and er. He talks more or less without pause and every word is clearly articulated. what he says, or is saying, although I can't help wondering whether quite a bit is assertion, is phrased so that time is needed to consider his words more carefully and challenge him!!

It is also just as likely, I suppose, that those who can and do challenge him might find he is right about the whole thing, but I am doubtful about that!

I wonder if he enjoys the fact that the woo merchants latch on to his work for their own benefit

Is he trying or not to 'blind people with science? I do not know.
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Sriram

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Re: Donald Hoffman: The Case Against Reality
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2021, 01:57:29 PM »
Fascinating interview with cognitive scientist Donald Hoffman here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HFFr0-ybg0

His theory is that “reality” is just the interfaces evolution has given us, just as an e-mail icon on a computer screen is an interface rather than the e-mail itself.


 :D A clear instance of the Two Boxes syndrome. The same 'theory' put forward by the same person is viewed so differently by you, depending on how you choose to classify it. 

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Donald Hoffman: The Case Against Reality
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2021, 02:50:15 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
:D A clear instance of the Two Boxes syndrome. The same 'theory' put forward by the same person is viewed so differently by you, depending on how you choose to classify it.

No one here has put forward the same theory. Presumably what you're reaching for is something like, "here's a theory that very tangentially refers to some of the conjectures I've asserted into existence, so if I discount almost all of what he's actually saying, try really hard to jemmy what I'm saying into the tiny that's left, and squint very, very hard maybe I can persuade myself that we're making the same argument".

Doesn't work does it.     
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Sriram

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Re: Donald Hoffman: The Case Against Reality
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2021, 03:41:02 PM »



Listen to the interview that I have linked above (earlier thread on 'Nature of Reality') and listen to his views on Consciousness, especially the last part.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Donald Hoffman: The Case Against Reality
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2021, 09:20:31 PM »
Sriram,

Quote
Listen to the interview that I have linked above (earlier thread on 'Nature of Reality') and listen to his views on Consciousness, especially the last part.

I see hoof marks in the sand and extrapolate to horses; you see hoof marks in the sand and extrapolate to unicorns.

Go figure.
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Sriram

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Re: Donald Hoffman: The Case Against Reality
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2021, 04:02:24 AM »



Donald Hoffman's theories don't become any less just because he suggests consciousness as being fundamental and even talks of bridging religion and science....but you don't like the idea!   ::)

SusanDoris

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Re: Donald Hoffman: The Case Against Reality
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2021, 05:54:18 AM »


Donald Hoffman's theories don't become any less just because he suggests consciousness as being fundamental and even talks of bridging religion and science....but you don't like the idea!   ::)
Anyone who thinks of putting forward the idea of bridging science and religion has stepped off the scientific method approach and needs to be viewed with scepticism.
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ekim

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Re: Donald Hoffman: The Case Against Reality
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2021, 09:50:58 AM »
Sriram,

I see hoof marks in the sand and extrapolate to horses; you see hoof marks in the sand and extrapolate to unicorns.

Go figure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MN6BTGXDL0s