Author Topic: Evil  (Read 5403 times)

Sriram

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Evil
« on: August 08, 2021, 06:49:53 AM »
Hi Everyone,

What is Evil? Is there an absolute Evil?

Is it only animal instinctive behavior (cannibalism, killing rivals, killing cubs of rival males etc.) that we call as evil when seen in humans?

Is there more evil in humans (meta conscious pleasure seeking, child and human trafficking, pedophilia, torture and cruelty) than animal instinctive behavior indicates? 

Is pure rational thinking (eugenics, weeding out disabled persons) also responsible for some Evil?

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2017/02/19/evil/

Any views?

Sriram

torridon

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Re: Evil
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2021, 08:43:48 AM »
Hi Everyone,

What is Evil? Is there an absolute Evil?

Is it only animal instinctive behavior (cannibalism, killing rivals, killing cubs of rival males etc.) that we call as evil when seen in humans?

Is there more evil in humans (meta conscious pleasure seeking, child and human trafficking, pedophilia, torture and cruelty) than animal instinctive behavior indicates? 

Is pure rational thinking (eugenics, weeding out disabled persons) also responsible for some Evil?

https://tsriramrao.wordpress.com/2017/02/19/evil/

Any views?

Sriram

Evil doesn't exist.  It's not a thing. What we have are behaviours and all behaviours lie on a spectrum from self-centredness to selflessness.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Evil
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2021, 09:55:19 AM »
Evil doesn't exist.  It's not a thing. What we have are behaviours and all behaviours lie on a spectrum from self-centredness to selflessness.
And yet people who would here agree with you would elsewhere argue against the evils of racism, homophobia or for the intrinsic righteousness of mouth foaming, get the bastards!!!!!!!antitheism.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2021, 09:59:10 AM by Walt Zingmatilder »

SusanDoris

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Re: Evil
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2021, 10:38:14 AM »
And yet people who would here agree with you would elsewhere argue against the evils of racism, homophobia or for the intrinsic righteousness of mouth foaming, get the bastards!!!!!!!antitheism.
The reason is straightforward - the word 'evil' is shorter than saying'behaviour of the very worst' or something similar. A new short word to take the place of the word evil would be a very good idea.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Evil
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2021, 10:39:20 AM »
And yet people who would here agree with you would elsewhere argue against the evils of racism, homophobia or for the intrinsic righteousness of mouth foaming, get the bastards!!!!!!!antitheism.

Goodness me. There is probably a fancy word (someone more learned than me will know it) for behaviour when somebody displays the very traits they decry.

Wanders off thinking they really should have devised tablets for people who foam at the mouth so readily.......
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Enki

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Re: Evil
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2021, 10:54:23 AM »
Like Torri I don't see evil as a thing and I tend not to use the word as it has religious/supernatural connotations. However, occasionally I might use it as an emotional expression of strong distaste against what I would consider to be extreme immoral behaviour.
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Sriram

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Re: Evil
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2021, 01:06:10 PM »
Evil doesn't exist.  It's not a thing. What we have are behaviours and all behaviours lie on a spectrum from self-centredness to selflessness.


Raping and murdering 3 year old children is being self centred?  Watching with glee videos of little children being raped repeatedly is being self centred?
Selling and buying children and women for use as sex slaves is being self centred? Advertising for...butchering and eating up people is being self centred?  Killing millions of men, women and children just because they belong to a particular community is being self centred?

Of course, Evil exists!  I am only trying to understand its source.

 

torridon

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Re: Evil
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2021, 01:38:00 PM »

Raping and murdering 3 year old children is being self centred?  Watching with glee videos of little children being raped repeatedly is being self centred?
Selling and buying children and women for use as sex slaves is being self centred? Advertising for...butchering and eating up people is being self centred?  Killing millions of men, women and children just because they belong to a particular community is being self centred?

Of course, Evil exists!  I am only trying to understand its source.

Yes the above are cases of people indulging their own desires to the detriment of others.  Some people enjoy inflicting 'unnecessary' pain and such behaviours are best understood in terms of sociopathology.  The language of 'evil' or 'sin' dates from way back earlier times before we understood such things as pathologies of the mind.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2021, 03:56:02 PM by torridon »

Sriram

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Re: Evil
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2021, 01:49:18 PM »
Yes the above are cases of people indulging their own desires to the detriment of others.  Some people enjoy inflicting 'unnecessary' pain and such behaviours are best understood in terms sociopathology.  The language of 'evil' or 'sin' dates from way back earlier times before we understood such things as pathologies of the mind.


You just want to use a different word for it. What has the idea of Evil got to do with religion?!

Your problems with religions have colored your thinking in so many ways that it has in general made some of you quite confined in your thinking.....  You people are always watching out for religious concepts....


SusanDoris

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Re: Evil
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2021, 02:01:44 PM »
Yes the above are cases of people indulging their own desires to the detriment of others.  Some people enjoy inflicting 'unnecessary' pain and such behaviours are best understood in terms sociopathology.  The language of 'evil' or 'sin' dates from way back earlier times before we understood such things as pathologies of the mind.
Another quote of the week type post. So well said.
The Most Honourable Sister of Titular Indecision.

BeRational

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Re: Evil
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2021, 02:02:57 PM »
Another quote of the week type post. So well said.

Seconded
I see gullible people, everywhere!

Udayana

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Re: Evil
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2021, 02:25:13 PM »
Yes the above are cases of people indulging their own desires to the detriment of others.  Some people enjoy inflicting 'unnecessary' pain and such behaviours are best understood in terms sociopathology.  The language of 'evil' or 'sin' dates from way back earlier times before we understood such things as pathologies of the mind.

hmm.. I don't think it helps to categorise pathological behaviour as just "self centred". We can all be self centred, indeed it is expected ... but  "evil" behaviour is in a different class and almost always due to psychological malfunction or disturbance.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

ekim

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Re: Evil
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2021, 03:50:43 PM »
My view is that what is termed evil is related to morality. Morality is basically social habits inculcated to preserve an individual self or a collective self such as a tribe, nation, religion or political persuasion.  The word 'evil' tends to be reserved for extreme forms of what is considered immoral behaviour and is a relative term rather than an absolute, as morality is changeable according to the prominent desire of the individual or collective group.  It is often motivated by the desire for pleasure and the fear of pain.  I'm not sure that I would say it emanates from psychological malfunction but perhaps in many cases from psychological conditioning.

SusanDoris

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Re: Evil
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2021, 04:20:56 PM »
The most important thing to remember is that 'evil' is simply a word, formed of four characters; it is not a thing.
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Gordon

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Re: Evil
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2021, 04:40:17 PM »
I tend to think of evil as being a synonym for 'bad things' that result in suffering of some sort.

torridon

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Re: Evil
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2021, 04:44:03 PM »

You just want to use a different word for it. What has the idea of Evil got to do with religion?!

Your problems with religions have colored your thinking in so many ways that it has in general made some of you quite confined in your thinking.....  You people are always watching out for religious concepts....

Notions of good and evil run through the heart of the Judeo-Christian mindset. Admittedly not so much in Eastern religions, but western civilisation derives from Judeo-Christian thinking and these concepts are still alive and well.  You will often see our own Mr Burns for instance describing the world in terms of a battle between the forces of good and evil being played out through human lives. I find this simplistic nonsense worth challenging with a more realistic rationale wherein all behaviours have roots and understanding those roots will eventually yield better outcomes, rather than simply labelling people shortsightedly as 'evil'.

Alan Burns

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Re: Evil
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2021, 05:04:17 PM »
Notions of good and evil run through the heart of the Judeo-Christian mindset. Admittedly not so much in Eastern religions, but western civilisation derives from Judeo-Christian thinking and these concepts are still alive and well.  You will often see our own Mr Burns for instance describing the world in terms of a battle between the forces of good and evil being played out through human lives. I find this simplistic nonsense worth challenging with a more realistic rationale wherein all behaviours have roots and understanding those roots will eventually yield better outcomes, rather than simply labelling people shortsightedly as 'evil'.
In the materialistic world, there can be no roots - just inevitable reactions whose consequences are beyond any form of control other than the laws governing particle physics.  In such a scenario, where is the power to bring about better outcomes?

The reality which you constantly try to deny is that we (humans) have the power to choose between good and evil.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Enki

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Re: Evil
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2021, 05:45:40 PM »
In the materialistic world, there can be no roots - just inevitable reactions whose consequences are beyond any form of control other than the laws governing particle physics.  In such a scenario, where is the power to bring about better outcomes?

The reality which you constantly try to deny is that we (humans) have the power to choose between good and evil.

Which says nothing at all about what is evil(or good) which is the subject of Sriram's enquiry.

And as you know very well particle physics is simply our best way of describing what goes on at the atomic/sub atomic level. It makes good sense to think that the choices we make are the result of reasons, and, therefore, given that we had exactly the same reasons, we would make the same choices, unless, of course, you think that a random element is also present. (Yawn).
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Bramble

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Re: Evil
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2021, 05:56:28 PM »
Of course, Evil exists!  I am only trying to understand its source.

The same source as Good.


Udayana

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Re: Evil
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2021, 05:58:06 PM »
In the materialistic world, there can be no roots - just inevitable reactions whose consequences are beyond any form of control other than the laws governing particle physics.  In such a scenario, where is the power to bring about better outcomes?

The reality which you constantly try to deny is that we (humans) have the power to choose between good and evil.

So when did you last choose evil over good and why? What would have led you to make a different choice?
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

torridon

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Re: Evil
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2021, 07:41:12 PM »
In the materialistic world, there can be no roots - just inevitable reactions whose consequences are beyond any form of control other than the laws governing particle physics.  In such a scenario, where is the power to bring about better outcomes?

The reality which you constantly try to deny is that we (humans) have the power to choose between good and evil.

Nobody denies that we make choices; simply that you cannot resolve a choice without reference to what has gone before.  Without that cause and effect, we would be unable to resolve any choice at all.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2021, 09:37:30 PM by torridon »

Sriram

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Re: Evil
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2021, 07:24:06 AM »
Notions of good and evil run through the heart of the Judeo-Christian mindset. Admittedly not so much in Eastern religions, but western civilisation derives from Judeo-Christian thinking and these concepts are still alive and well.  You will often see our own Mr Burns for instance describing the world in terms of a battle between the forces of good and evil being played out through human lives. I find this simplistic nonsense worth challenging with a more realistic rationale wherein all behaviours have roots and understanding those roots will eventually yield better outcomes, rather than simply labelling people shortsightedly as 'evil'.


The extent to which religious concepts affect and channel your thoughts (albeit negatively) is amazing.... 

Evil (immoral, wicked) exists.  We can't shy away from that merely because Christianity talks of evil!

As I have said, much of what we consider as Evil could be related to animal instinctive behavior that is unacceptable in human societies.  But there is much (listed above) that lies outside animal instincts.  There is more evil in humans....in the sense of enjoying the suffering of others....than in animals.

It is simplistic to attribute all this to mere pathological reasons. Evil is not just a disease. 

There are probably genetic reasons for evil.  Circumstances and upbringing alone cannot be responsible for evil because there are many people who live in very poor and oppressive circumstances but are very good ....even saintly....people.  It is peoples nature of reactions to their circumstances rather than the circumstances themselves that result in evil.




« Last Edit: August 09, 2021, 07:26:11 AM by Sriram »

torridon

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Re: Evil
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2021, 08:23:09 AM »

The extent to which religious concepts affect and channel your thoughts (albeit negatively) is amazing.... 

Evil (immoral, wicked) exists.  We can't shy away from that merely because Christianity talks of evil!

As I have said, much of what we consider as Evil could be related to animal instinctive behavior that is unacceptable in human societies.  But there is much (listed above) that lies outside animal instincts.  There is more evil in humans....in the sense of enjoying the suffering of others....than in animals.

It is simplistic to attribute all this to mere pathological reasons. Evil is not just a disease. 

There are probably genetic reasons for evil.  Circumstances and upbringing alone cannot be responsible for evil because there are many people who live in very poor and oppressive circumstances but are very good ....even saintly....people.  It is peoples nature of reactions to their circumstances rather than the circumstances themselves that result in evil.

I dispute the language that describes evil as if it were a force in the world, somehow influencing people to do bad things.  it is misleading. What we have, is behaviours, and behaviours can be good or bad, helpful or unhelpful and we can describe bad behaviours as evil.  It is just the lazy notion of evil being a thing in itself that is well past its sell by date.

Outrider

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Re: Evil
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2021, 08:54:13 AM »
Raping and murdering 3 year old children is being self centred?  Watching with glee videos of little children being raped repeatedly is being self centred? Selling and buying children and women for use as sex slaves is being self centred? Advertising for...butchering and eating up people is being self centred?


Ultimately, yes - it's putting self-fulfilment above the needs of others or the community.

Quote
Killing millions of men, women and children just because they belong to a particular community is being self centred?

After a fashion - it's putting your preference for those you feel (rightly or wrongly) are similar to you over the rights of others who you feel (rightly or wrongly) are different to you.

Quote
Of course, Evil exists!  I am only trying to understand its source.

Evil only exists within a cultural context. There are some behaviours that seem pretty much hard-wired into humanity which range across cultures - murder of your own children seems to be a fairly consistent one - but I'm not sure you could extrapolate that to some sort of overarching universal evil-ness?

As to a source - whether you think evil is absolute or relative, the source is simple: people. Some people, it turns out, are scum.

O.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Evil
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2021, 10:28:26 AM »

As to a source - whether you think evil is absolute or relative, the source is simple: people. Some people, it turns out, are scum.

O.
But if people are just a continuum of the physical reactions of a material universe, the people cannot be deemed to be a source of evil.
Earthquakes happen as an inevitable, unavoidable consequence to previous events, but earthquakes are not deemed to be evil.
And from a purely materialist view, I am constantly reminded that our apparently conscious choices are also just an inevitable reaction to previous events.  So how can evil be a reality in such a scenario?

The only way for evil to be a reality is for the cause of evil to be generated by a consciously driven act of intent.  Intent to indulge in self gratification with full knowledge that it will do unwarranted harm to others.  It is a personal choice, not an inevitable reaction to past events.  It is the conscious act of intent which is deemed to be evil - not the consequence.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton