Author Topic: Evil  (Read 5377 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Evil
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2021, 12:44:20 PM »
You aren't happy about the homophobia, but you'll defend it?

No what's happened is after centuries of holy marriage defined as between one man and woman. You have decided it isn't and that everyone who thought that, was homophobic until they think like you.

What also happened is after centuries of marriage defined as between any number of men with any number of women you have decided it isn't and that anyone who has thought that, was homophobic.

When did you realise then that you were a homophobe then under your own definitions? Or have you retconned your life to edit Your previously held definitions out?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Evil
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2021, 12:47:49 PM »


 Evil is not an entity, it's a recognition of a pattern (and within a context, at that).

You what?

Outrider

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Re: Evil
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2021, 01:16:47 PM »
You what?

Evil is an aesthetic judgement of behaviour, not a measurable manifestation of anything. You can't 'detect' evil, you can't 'measure' evil, different cultures have different opinions on where the boundary of evil and non-evil behaviour.

O.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Evil
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2021, 06:32:29 PM »
Evil is an aesthetic judgement of behaviour, not a measurable manifestation of anything. You can't 'detect' evil, you can't 'measure' evil, different cultures have different opinions on where the boundary of evil and non-evil behaviour.
So why then should people be vilified or even executed for evil if it is all just a matter of taste?
Also, you seem to be saying that you can make a judgment on something you can't detect, How do you think that works?

Since you are equating morality with aesthetics, which of the two concepts do you think it is safe and reasonable to make redundant?

Outrider

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Re: Evil
« Reply #54 on: August 12, 2021, 07:09:21 PM »
So why then should people be vilified or even executed for evil if it is all just a matter of taste?

That's a significant question, and one to which I don't have an answer. As a determinist, I don't think the concepts of 'blame' or 'punishment' have any real meaning. The best I think we can do is either re-education or removing them from the collective for the benefit of the majority in the community.

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Also, you seem to be saying that you can make a judgment on something you can't detect, How do you think that works?

The same way any aesthetic judgement is made; individual taste. We have musical preferences, but music has no measurable quality of 'goodness', there are simply some patterns we appreciate and others we don't. Other people have a different balance, neither of them is 'right'.

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Since you are equating morality with aesthetics, which of the two concepts do you think it is safe and reasonable to make redundant?

Neither - one is a specific example of the other, both have a place. I suppose it's a matter of taste which you define it as in any given discussion.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Nearly Sane

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Re: Evil
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2021, 07:17:49 PM »
That's a significant question, and one to which I don't have an answer. As a determinist, I don't think the concepts of 'blame' or 'punishment' have any real meaning. The best I think we can do is either re-education or removing them from the collective for the benefit of the majority in the community.
.....
O.
If you are a determinist in that sense 'the best we can do' is a meaningless term. There is only what we will do.

Outrider

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Re: Evil
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2021, 07:21:30 PM »
If you are a determinist in that sense 'the best we can do' is a meaningless term. There is only what we will do.

Touche  ;D

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Evil
« Reply #57 on: August 13, 2021, 05:20:33 PM »
No what's happened is after centuries of holy marriage defined as between one man and woman. You have decided it isn't and that everyone who thought that, was homophobic until they think like you.

What also happened is after centuries of marriage defined as between any number of men with any number of women you have decided it isn't and that anyone who has thought that, was homophobic.

When did you realise then that you were a homophobe then under your own definitions? Or have you retconned your life to edit Your previously held definitions out?
Words get re-defined in different ways by the people using them. For example various religious people have tried to define the word "sin" over the years and there will be plenty of other people (religious and non-religious) who might disagree with their definitions. Yet religious people still continue to use the word "sin" based on their understandings of the meaning regardless of any objections from those labelled as sinners. 

Similarly, at least since the 2007 legislation, people have re-defined the word "homophobe" to be not just someone who has a fear or distaste for gay people but also includes things like indirect discrimination e.g. where a provision, criterion or practice, which is applied generally, puts a person of a particular sexual orientation at a disadvantage and cannot be shown to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. 

Society decided it is not legitimate to differentiate between almost all services provided to homosexual and heterosexual people. However, society/ the legislation did allow religious groups to discriminate in the religious marriage services they offer presumably because this discrimination was deemed to be a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim? The legitimate aim seems to be the protection of religious practices and beliefs.

Why is this deemed a legitimate aim? Why are some genuinely held religious or philosophical beliefs about a weighty and substantial aspect of human life and behaviour deemed to be worthy of protection? Maybe because throughout history humans have shown they are willing to kill or die for their deeply held beliefs. Governments have harnessed this to send people to war or to risk their lives based on a belief in some abstract concept or other e.g. fairness, morality, justice, freedom, patriotism, capitalism, communism. Laws are constructed around these emotional beliefs and there are going to be clashes between different beliefs.

Behaviour based on beliefs need to be regulated by society because left unregulated, the clashes between beliefs can lead to conflict and society seeks to maintain order in order to function. So I would think that one of the reasons why people are vilified or punished for behaviour that is deemed "wrong" or "evil" by other members of society is because the majority of humans are social animals and seem to have identified order as a means to collectively progress and to control the dangers they face from their environment.       
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

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ekim

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Re: Evil
« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2021, 10:15:50 AM »

Behaviour based on beliefs need to be regulated by society because left unregulated, the clashes between beliefs can lead to conflict and society seeks to maintain order in order to function. So I would think that one of the reasons why people are vilified or punished for behaviour that is deemed "wrong" or "evil" by other members of society is because the majority of humans are social animals and seem to have identified order as a means to collectively progress and to control the dangers they face from their environment.     

Unfortunately many people confuse 'belief' with 'truth', probably because they are conditioned to do so from an early age and this has been encouraged by those seeking to exercise power over the many.  It is reinforced by declaring those who do not follow the true way as infidels, apostates, heretics, enemies of the state.  If they are comparatively few in number and seen to pose a threat to those in power attempts may be made to force them to see the errors of their ways as is seen in China with the Uighurs, or smaller numbers are forced to flee, or even smaller numbers executed or imprisoned.  Control of the flock is imperative to them.  Democracy is an attempt to persuade the majority of the flock to go in a certain direction with an agreement that all will follow the majority but the minority are allowed to continue bleating.