Atheism ends today

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Is it ok to ask why you asked that question and what is the hypothesis behind it?
 

If I say this guy WAS an atheist and he asks Was he brought up as a catholic then of the bat that sounds like the prelude to a no true atheist (could stop being an atheist) fallacy on his part. The prof denies that though. So what does he have in mind, particularly as he accepts this guy was an atheist before he stopped being an atheist? What has a catholic upbringing got to do with this chap becoming a catholic in later life and switching from atheism?

[Sebastian Toe]

If I say this guy WAS an atheist and he asks Was he brought up as a catholic then of the bat that sounds like the prelude to a no true atheist (could stop being an atheist) fallacy on his part. The prof denies that though. So what does he have in mind, particularly as he accepts this guy was an atheist before he stopped being an atheist? What has a catholic upbringing got to do with this chap becoming a catholic in later life and switching from atheism?

Might show nothing more than it was more likely that path taken than say , to Mormon or Muslim or Mysticism or Buddhism or......well you get the drift.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Might show nothing more than it was more likely that path taken than say , to Mormon or Muslim or Mysticism or Buddhism or......well you get the drift.

I don't know. But given that he accepts my friend was atheist , Davey sounded interested in this guys career potentially as a brought up catholic, then atheist, then a catholic on his own account. The question remains why is Davey interested in that path rather than the one where you are brought up as a half arsed agnostic, C of E sunday school (and not any other day of the week) attender then HARD ARSED ATHEIST then catholic believer?

Do you think there are many converts from ''atheist message board contributing atheism'' to ''couldn't give a shit if there is or isn't a god apatheism'' for instance?

[ProfessorDavey]

So what does he have in mind, particularly as he accepts this guy was an atheist before he stopped being an atheist? What has a catholic upbringing got to do with this chap becoming a catholic in later life and switching from atheism?

It has everything to do with it.

There is a world of difference between, on the one hand, a person brought up as a catholic, for whom catholicism is a major part of their upbringing, their culture and their heritage, who might later in life move away from that belief system for a while and then revert back to it. And on the other a person who wasn't brought up in a particular belief system (e.g. catholicism), indeed perhaps in a non religious manner and later becomes an adherent of a particular belief (e.g. catholicism) without any upbringing, heritage or cultural engagement with that belief as a child.

They are chalk and cheese - realistically in the latter case the person converts to being a catholic, in the former they merely revert to being an active catholic. Indeed in the mind of the catholic church there would be no conversion in the former case, nor really reversion, as they'd consider this person to have been a catholic continually from childhood, albeit one that wasn't active for a while.

[ProfessorDavey]

Do you think there are many converts from ''atheist message board contributing atheism'' to ''couldn't give a shit if there is or isn't a god apatheism'' for instance?

I have no idea.

However I do know (because there is highly credible research on the topic in the UK) that it is incredibly rare for a person not brought up in a religious household to convert to a religious belief (any religious belief) as an adult. Yet about half of children brought up within a religious household will have rejected that religion as adults.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It has everything to do with it.

There is a world of difference between, on the one hand, a person brought up as a catholic, for whom catholicism is a major part of their upbringing, their culture and their heritage, who might later in life move away from that belief system for a while and then revert back to it. And on the other a person who wasn't brought up in a particular belief system (e.g. catholicism), indeed perhaps in a non religious manner and later becomes an adherent of a particular belief (e.g. catholicism) without any upbringing, heritage or cultural engagement with that belief as a child.

They are chalk and cheese - realistically in the latter case the person converts to being a catholic, in the former they merely revert to being an active catholic. Indeed in the mind of the catholic church there would be no conversion in the former case, nor really reversion, as they'd consider this person to have been a catholic continually from childhood, albeit one that wasn't active for a while.

Since I don't have much interest in looking into the mind of the catholic church but every interest in the minds of forum contributing atheists. I have been commenting on your interest if not need for this guy to have been raised as a catholic. What you seem to be alluding to is that it is possible to consciously be a convinced atheist( you say this chap could have been a sincere atheist) yet there are undercurrents from a pre atheist catholic experience that have pulled him back to catholicism.

What do you suppose pulled this person back to catholicism or as is more likely IMV pulled him to catholicism for the first time? Alternatively, could it be that he was, as an atheist, a subconcious catholic?

[ProfessorDavey]

I have been commenting on your interest if not need for this guy to have been raised as a catholic.

I certainly have an interest in the transmissibility of religion in the UK - as you well know as I post about it regularly. I have no need for this chap to have been raised as a catholic, however because I know that the statistics are I recognise this to be very likely.

So from the catholic churches own data - over 92% of people in the UK who currently affiliate as catholic are 'cradle' catholics (their term), in other words brought up catholic. Less than one in one hundred people in the UK who currently affiliate as catholic were brought up non religious. So the likelihood that your chap had not been brought up catholic is slim, the possibility that he was brought up in a non religious household is vanishingly small.

So I have no need for this chap to have been raised as a catholic but recognise that the statistics suggest it is very likely to have been the case.

[ProfessorDavey]

What do you suppose pulled this person back to catholicism ...

Almost certainly the importance of his catholic upbringing.

... or as is more likely IMV pulled him to catholicism for the first time?

Almost certainly his parents raising him as a catholic in the first place.

Why are your appearing to assume he wasn't raised catholic when you earlier claimed you didn't know and the statistics suggest it is overwhelmingly likely, and even more overwhelmingly unlikely that he was brought up non religious.

[ProfessorDavey]

The question remains why is Davey interested in that path rather than the one where you are brought up as a half arsed agnostic, C of E sunday school (and not any other day of the week) attender then HARD ARSED ATHEIST then catholic believer?

Well that would be a pretty rare thing too.

While less than 1% of current catholics were brought up non-religious, the proportion brought up Anglican, while a touch larger, is still very small at just a few %. And, of course, most of those will be direct converts and not on the basis of half arsed agnostic, C of E sunday school but on the basis that they felt the CofE was too liberal for their more conservative christianity.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Almost certainly the importance of his catholic upbringing.

If it were that important how do you explain the atheism? Doesn't an atheism which has been chosen after consideration have more importance?

Almost certainly his parents raising him as a catholic in the first place.

We don't know that's true. Remember we are just leaving it in to indulge your seeming need....Are you saying then that all ex catholics have to work on not being dragged back into catholicism? That certainly isn't the settling into non-belief you talked about earlier. You seem to be portraying life for the former catholic as some kind of tightrope with a side narrative of atheism fitting ex catholics like a comfy sock as a contradictory side narrative.

So what you leave us with is ex catholics as doubting atheists... or prone to turning. Why does atheism then fail returners to the faith?  Alternatively and to come back to an issue I raised but you avoided. Do you think it possible to be a true atheist and a subconscious catholic?

[ProfessorDavey]

If it were that important how do you explain the atheism? Doesn't an atheism which has been chosen after consideration have more importance?

Depends on the individual, I guess. Upbringing is incredibly important in terms of setting beliefs, outlook etc for life. And religions know this which is why most have a whole series of events, activities etc very clearly designed to ensure that a child is brought up in their religion. 'Give me a child until he is 7 and I will show you the man', and all that.

It is actually pretty significant in terms of the 'believability' of religion in the UK that despite all the efforts that religions put into inculcating their religion into children that about half of those children reject that religion as an adult. And as we readily know if you don't bring up a child to be religious there is a vanishingly small chance they will decide to become religious as an adult.

[ProfessorDavey]

Are you saying then that all ex catholics have to work on not being dragged back into catholicism? That certainly isn't the settling into non-belief you talked about earlier. You seem to be portraying life for the former catholic as some kind of tightrope with a side narrative of atheism fitting ex catholics like a comfy sock as a contradictory side narrative.

Depends on the individual, but of course there are plenty of 'cradle' catholics who have rejected the religion of their upbringing with absolutely no likelihood of returning to catholicism. There will be others, no doubt, for whom detaching themselves from the religion of their upbringing is just a phase and they will at some point later in life return to the fold.

We do know, however that the former seems more compelling than the latter as nearly 40% of cradle catholics no longer affiliate as catholics as adults and in terms of active participation the effect is even more noted, with nigh on 60% of cradle catholics never attend mass as adults.

[ProfessorDavey]

Do you think it possible to be a true atheist and a subconscious catholic?

Actually yes - I think this is quite possible and not even subconscious.

Why? Because affiliating as catholic is often more of a cultural thing rather than a religious thing. So I suspect there may be plenty of cradle catholics who do not believe in god but culturally still see themselves as catholic.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Depends on the individual, but of course there are plenty of 'cradle' catholics who have rejected the religion of their upbringing with absolutely no likelihood of returning to catholicism. There will be others, no doubt, for whom detaching themselves from the religion of their upbringing is just a phase and they will at some point later in life return to the fold.

Atheism as ''a phase''. That's certainly an interesting point. What makes it ''a phase'' for them and not for any atheist I wonder?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Actually yes - I think this is quite possible and not even subconscious.

Why? Because affiliating as catholic is often more of a cultural thing rather than a religious thing. So I suspect there may be plenty of cradle catholics who do not believe in god but culturally still see themselves as catholic.

I feel you are being a bit disingenuous and devious here. The person under discussion may or may not be raised a catholic. I know that his atheism seemed very sincere and thought through and indeed grounded. He was a maths graduate after all And yet he puts that away to become a catholic. He certainly didn't view himself as a catholic or anglican or christian when I knew him. So your comment doesn't really apply.
I can draw parallels with him and you. My other atheist friend ventured that the person in question would not attend anything religious for fear of a manifestation. You treat your statistics on conversion/reversion whatever in a way that reflects your view of religion as pathology. You both then fear catching religion.
Putting the unmistakable whiff of argumentum ad populum aside, I think you draw comfort from anything which tells you of a slim chance of getting proper, rather than cultural religion.

You have still avoided the question. Can a true atheist become a true, rather than cultural believer?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Depends on the individual, I guess. Upbringing is incredibly important in terms of setting beliefs, outlook etc for life. And religions know this which is why most have a whole series of events, activities etc very clearly designed to ensure that a child is brought up in their religion. 'Give me a child until he is 7 and I will show you the man', and all that.

Does that explain a true atheist becoming a true catholic though. What you keep avoiding is that in anybody's book this is an example of a failure of deeply and vehemently professed atheism, the type found on message boards.

It is actually pretty significant in terms of the 'believability' of religion in the UK that despite all the efforts that religions put into inculcating their religion into children that about half of those children reject that religion as an adult. And as we readily know if you don't bring up a child to be religious there is a vanishingly small chance they will decide to become religious as an adult.

There we go again Davey, vanishingly small chance, (your words), of catching religion.....Why are you approaching religion in this way? If not religion as pathology then certainly argumentum ad populum for atheism?

[ProfessorDavey]

There we go again Davey, vanishingly small chance, (your words), of catching religion..... ...If not religion as pathology...

Where exactly did I talk about catching Vlad - oh, let me help you, I didn't, that phraseology is entirely from you. Here is what I actually said:

'if you don't bring up a child to be religious there is a vanishingly small chance they will decide to become religious as an adult.'

So no Vlad I didn't describe religion as akin to pathology at all, nope I described it as a choice.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Where exactly did I talk about catching Vlad - oh, let me help you, I didn't, that phraseology is entirely from you. Here is what I actually said:

'if you don't bring up a child to be religious there is a vanishingly small chance they will decide to become religious as an adult.'

So no Vlad I didn't describe religion as akin to pathology at all, nope I described it as a choice.

You actually said lots of things Davy and even the one here doesn't address a true atheist becoming a true catholic. Instead we have just heard what you want the narrative to be which is along the lines that the catholics brainwashed him when he was small.

What I would like you to address is the loss of atheism.

What the stats say I think is that most believe there is ''something there''. So not the full atheism.

[ProfessorDavey]

You actually said lots of things Davy ...

But what I did not say was that people were catching religion akin to a pathology, as you implied I did.

Perhaps you'd like to retract that comment and apologise to me for implying a made such a claim.

[ProfessorDavey]

What the stats say I think is that most believe there is ''something there''. So not the full atheism.

Now look you is pandering to argumentum ad populum.

Where have I ever claimed that atheists are in the majority in the UK - I never have. So yet again you are misrepresenting me.

[ProfessorDavey]

What I would like you to address is the loss of atheism.

What is there to address - someone who at one point in their lives did not believe that god existed and then changed their view on the matter.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Now look you is pandering to argumentum ad populum.

Oops, yes I is

Where have I ever claimed that atheists are in the majority in the UK - I never have.

Right, and in fact when My friend became a catholic there was one less.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What is there to address - someone who at one point in their lives did not believe that god existed and then changed their view on the matter.

Refusing to even consider thinking about it smacks of Goddodging to me.

[ProfessorDavey]

I feel you are being a bit disingenuous and devious here.

No I'm not.

The person under discussion may or may not be raised a catholic.

Which you don't know - what can be said (and the mathematician in your friend might approve, particularly if he was a statistician) is that nigh on 93% of people who affiliate as catholics in the UK were brought up as catholics. So in all likelihood if he ended up as a catholic then he was brought up as one, albeit with a period where he took a different view.

I know that his atheism seemed very sincere and thought through and indeed grounded.

I cannot comment as I don't know him - what I can say is that had he been brought up in a non religious manner and ultimately became a catholic then he is a very, very rare beast indeed - one in more than one hundred.

He was a maths graduate after all

You know it is possible to be a maths graduate and also a catholic - indeed my niece is just that - she was, of course, like 93% of catholics also brought up to be catholic.

And yet he puts that away to become a catholic.

There you go again become implying he never was previously, which you don't know. Much more likely (as the stats indicate) he was simply reverting back to catholicism.

He certainly didn't view himself as a catholic or anglican or christian when I knew him. So your comment doesn't really apply.

But you told us he was an atheist when you know him, so why would he say he was catholic or anglican or christian when he was an atheist. But you don't know about his upbringing though do you.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No I'm not.
Which you don't know - what can be said (and the mathematician in your friend might approve, particularly if he was a statistician) is that nigh on 93% of people who affiliate as catholics in the UK were brought up as catholics. So in all likelihood if he ended up as a catholic then he was brought up as one, albeit with a period where he took a different view.
I cannot comment as I don't know him - what I can say is that had he been brought up in a non religious manner and ultimately became a catholic then he is a very, very rare beast indeed - one in more than one hundred.
You know it is possible to be a maths graduate and also a catholic - indeed my niece is just that - she was, of course, like 93% of catholics also brought up to be catholic.
There you go again become implying he never was previously, which you don't know. Much more likely (as the stats indicate) he was simply reverting back to catholicism.
But you told us he was an atheist when you know him, so why would he say he was catholic or anglican or christian when he was an atheist. But you don't know about his upbringing though do you.

Were you brought up as a catholic, Davey? Have you put it behind you?