Author Topic: some home truths from Alice Cooper  (Read 9131 times)

Alan Burns

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The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
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Aruntraveller

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2021, 09:07:23 PM »
The unfounded assertion of truth in your thread title is excellent work. Misleading. Untrue. But excellent. Gold star.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2021, 09:37:49 PM »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2021, 10:07:10 PM »
Not only does Alice Cooper detect Goddodging he has a theory for it. I would say that God certainly challenges the ego for the highest place in the concerns of the self having found myself Goddodging.

Nearly Sane

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2021, 10:10:56 PM »
Not only does Alice Cooper detect Goddodging he has a theory for it. I would say that God certainly challenges the ego for the highest place in the concerns of the self having found myself Goddodging.
I would suggest that a theory that you are right because you are you, as  you have done here  is a claim to some form of 'godship' 
« Last Edit: October 06, 2021, 08:26:38 AM by Nearly Sane »

Aruntraveller

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2021, 10:55:25 PM »
Not only does Alice Cooper detect Goddodging he has a theory for it. I would say that God certainly challenges the ego for the highest place in the concerns of the self having found myself Goddodging.

Strikes me that it is the religious people with the ego. They can't believe they stop. So they invent an afterlife in the sunlit uplands.

We all know how evasive they can be. Or as recent experience has shown, non-existent.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Outrider

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2021, 11:15:59 PM »
Don't believe in the mythic Jesus on the basis of the story of the mythic Jesus being unbelievable. I like some of Alice Cooper's music, but his understanding of the nature of unbelief is... lacking?

Not believing isn't an active pursuit, you don't choose to not believe, you just hear the claim and it doesn't carry enough weight...

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2021, 09:28:19 AM »
I would suggest that a theory that you are right because you are you, as  you have done here  is a claim to some form of 'godship'
I'm sorry, what are you trying to say here?

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2021, 09:40:04 AM »
Strikes me that it is the religious people with the ego.
We all have an ego. And for many there is nothing they esteem more even to the point of acting as if there is no God even though they don't know there isn't. The giveaway is the reluctance even to contemplate the existence of a sentient perfection
Quote
They can't believe they stop.
That is a caricature. I think it's because people in the presence of God realise they are not who they thought they were, i.e. the hero of there own story
Quote
So they invent an afterlife in the sunlit uplands.
If when I say the afterlife isn't the motivator for some committing to God through Jesus Christ, you can say subconsciously it is, then I am allowed to say that people are subconsciously Dodging God.



jeremyp

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2021, 12:34:26 PM »
Why is Vlad suddenly so obsessed with God dogging?
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Aruntraveller

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2021, 01:41:35 PM »
Why is Vlad suddenly so obsessed with God dogging?

He's got his websites mixed up.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2021, 01:44:56 PM »
We all have an ego. And for many there is nothing they esteem more even to the point of acting as if there is no God even though they don't know there isn't. The giveaway is the reluctance even to contemplate the existence of a sentient perfection That is a caricature. I think it's because people in the presence of God realise they are not who they thought they were, i.e. the hero of there own story If when I say the afterlife isn't the motivator for some committing to God through Jesus Christ, you can say subconsciously it is, then I am allowed to say that people are subconsciously Dodging God.

From my teens to my 40th year I contemplated and searched for "sentient perfection", even on occasion believing I'd had strong evidence of its existence - both from study and personal experience.
I eventually realised that this was all a wild goose-chase.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2021, 01:57:50 PM »
From my teens to my 40th year I contemplated and searched for "sentient perfection", even on occasion believing I'd had strong evidence of its existence - both from study and personal experience.
I eventually realised that this was all a wild goose-chase.
My experience was of my attention being arrested by Christianity but it sounds that you started your search from a different place. Why did you start your search in the first place, what was it that attracted you to the notion of God as something worth pursuing?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2021, 02:21:03 PM »
https://www.movieguide.org/news-articles/alice-cooper-people-avoid-believing-in-jesus-because-they-dont-want-to-give-up-their-godship.html
Oh dear - yet another christian hectoring the rest of us about what we are doing wrong ... yawn.

And in this case a washed up old rocker - why should we take any notice of what he has to say about the way we choose to live our lives and what we believe or do not believe. Frankly he has no idea what I (or I suspect anyone else on this forum) believes or does not believe, nor why we have come to those choices.

For the record - I think 'School's out for summer' is great.

Dicky Underpants

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2021, 03:12:35 PM »
My experience was of my attention being arrested by Christianity but it sounds that you started your search from a different place. Why did you start your search in the first place, what was it that attracted you to the notion of God as something worth pursuing?
No - my search in my early teens began with Christianity (albeit in a sect). Later, My search widened, before returning to Christianity during a very painful period. That was yet again abortive. I didn't abandon 'theism' as a possibility before finally giving it all up as a bad job.
Christian culture- music  architecture and art,  of course, remains important to me.
Oh yes, I felt a 'god shaped hole' in my life. I've learned to live with that. It's not difficult. All you have to do is adopt a philosophy of 'shit happens'. And sometimes good things happen too.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2021, 04:04:26 PM »
No - my search in my early teens began with Christianity (albeit in a sect). Later, My search widened, before returning to Christianity during a very painful period. That was yet again abortive. I didn't abandon 'theism' as a possibility before finally giving it all up as a bad job.
Christian culture- music  architecture and art,  of course, remains important to me.
Oh yes, I felt a 'god shaped hole' in my life. I've learned to live with that. It's not difficult. All you have to do is adopt a philosophy of 'shit happens'. And sometimes good things happen too.
I think finding you have a god shaped hole to be spiritually significant. How for instance does one know the hole to be God shaped without a knowledge of God?
Was it this discovery that motivated the search?

Gordon

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2021, 04:30:49 PM »
On what basis should we assume that Mr Furnier's views are in any sense authoritative?
They aren't.

He is perfectly entitled to speak about his own faith and his own faith journey with obvious authority. However he has no authority when he starts to tell others who have come to a different conclusion that they are somehow wrong on a matter or belief nor does he have any authority to indicate he knows why they have come to that conclusion.

So Alice Cooper is no more authoritative in terms of defining what I believe (or don't believe) and why, that I have in terms of defining what he believes (or don't believe) and why.

The difference is, of course, that he, as a famous person, can snap his fingers and get christian evangelist media to act as a willing mouthpiece for his views. I have no such privilege.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2021, 04:42:34 PM »
He does seem a tad confused, or is it deluded. He says:

“[Jesus] the most written about character of all time in history, and yet people go out of their way to not believe in Him.”

So apparently despite the fact that people are ramming Jesus down people's throats all the time many don't believe the claims Cooper blames the listeners. Perhaps if you are constantly telling people something but they don't believe you it is a problem with the message - that it is simply unbelievable, and that is why people don't believe it.

Nearly Sane

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2021, 04:47:24 PM »
He does seem a tad confused, or is it deluded. He says:

“[Jesus] the most written about character of all time in history, and yet people go out of their way to not believe in Him.”

So apparently despite the fact that people are ramming Jesus down people's throats all the time many don't believe the claims Cooper blames the listeners. Perhaps if you are constantly telling people something but they don't believe you it is a problem with the message - that it is simply unbelievable, and that is why people don't believe it.
It also confuses historicity with divinity

ProfessorDavey

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2021, 05:08:46 PM »
It also confuses historicity with divinity
He is falling into the classic trope of thinking that if you shout louder and more often that people will believe you. Standard modus operandum for christianity over the years. Why they've got away with it in the past is firstly by getting their claws into kids at a young and impressionably age sufficiently that they see christianity as simply something that they are by upbringing. Plus of course a healthy dollup of authoritarianism and threat.

But in many countries both of those elements are falling away, both due to freedom of religion (and freedom not to be religious), plus a broader and more balanced upbringing for many kids that doesn't bring up kids to be a specific religion, but recognises they can make their own choices. And guess what happens - in their droves kids and the adults they become go 'sure I know you keep ramming this christianity down my throat, but I just don't believe it'.

Bottom line - stop blaming individuals for not believing, stop blaming the messenger (in other words thinking that if you find some new and different manner to get across the christian message, then everyone will believe it) - start looking at the actual message. For huge numbers of people the reason they don't believe in the claims of christianity is because they are, frankly, unbelievable. No amount of telling us again and again and again, or using shadow puppets, living testimonies or washed up old rockers etc, etc is going to change the fundamental unbelievability of the message.

Alan Burns

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2021, 06:12:46 PM »
Just an observation that this forum shows abundant examples of non believers "cherry picking" the meagre evidence available to support what they proclaim yet choose to ignore the mountains of evidence which confirms the existence of a Creator and their own spiritual nature.
The truth will set you free  - John 8:32
Truth is not an abstraction, but a person - Edith Stein
Free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. - CS Lewis
Joy is the Gigantic Secret of Christians - GK Chesterton

Gordon

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2021, 06:32:07 PM »
Just an observation that this forum shows abundant examples of non believers "cherry picking" the meagre evidence available to support what they proclaim yet choose to ignore the mountains of evidence which confirms the existence of a Creator and their own spiritual nature.

You have the remarkable ability to pack multiple mistakes into a single sentence, Alan.

All I'm 'proclaiming' is that I'm rejecting all the claims of a 'Creator' or 'spiritual nature' that I've encountered to date since the "mountains of evidence" that you cite turns out to be fallacious and/or incoherent. I offer no 'evidence' since I don't need to: all I need do is offer grounds to reject the claims made by the likes of yourself.

The burden of proof here isn't mine - it's yours.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2021, 08:01:45 PM »
You have the remarkable ability to pack multiple mistakes into a single sentence, Alan.

All I'm 'proclaiming' is that I'm rejecting all the claims of a 'Creator' or 'spiritual nature' that I've encountered to date since the "mountains of evidence" that you cite turns out to be fallacious and/or incoherent. I offer no 'evidence' since I don't need to: all I need do is offer grounds to reject the claims made by the likes of yourself.

The burden of proof here isn't mine - it's yours.
And again Gordon, where is the evidence for your philosophical empiricism?

Dicky Underpants

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Re: some home truths from Alice Cooper
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2021, 10:52:07 PM »
I think finding you have a god shaped hole to be spiritually significant. How for instance does one know the hole to be God shaped without a knowledge of God?
Was it this discovery that motivated the search?
It's just a Christian cliche. Its general meaning would be that desire for life to have some ultimate meaning which somehow includes us personally. Some people feel this very keenly, others less so. The French atheist biochemist Jacques Monod seemed to suggest it was universal, but added that the idea that there is no 'ultimate meaning' is an uncomfortable truth humanity is just going to have to learn to live with. Well, I've been living with this idea for a long time now, and it's not so uncomfortable. You're just left with life and all its pains and pleasures, and maybe what Dawkins called "A sense of wonder"
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David