Why not believe in Thor or Leprechauns?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What you seem to be suggesting is that you were not conditioned as a child to believe in Christianity.  I believe you had a 'spiritual' experience later in life which you seem to have interpreted as a Christian one rather than, say, a Zen experience.  Perhaps you could say what prompted the Christian interpretation as opposed to that of any other religion.

As I was reading the works of CS Lewis I became aware of something behind Lewis writing and that I was tuning into it. The reality of it began to strike me. The bible which had been quaint remote and incomprehensible started to become vital, relevant and not only comprehensible but relaying the "signal".I was enthusiastic for God at that time but then Jesus began to be part of my transformation. I started praying to God about Jesus and soon guided to New testament passages where Jesus stands at the door of your life knocking and where he says to Matthew....follow me. I spent a few hours totally focused on this, trying to avoid then I had a mental picture of a pudding with no taste and knew that that's what life would be like if I denied Christ and so I told him to take it all. The mental paralysis ended  and I was overjoyed I'd found him.

[jeremyp]

Not voices, a sense of presence, a sense of distance, thoughts, phrases which come to mind, new insights and understandings, new illumination of a formerly closed off biblical passages, a hunger for the bible, a sense of mental and spiritual integration in Christian fellowship and after sacraments. That sort of thing.

So nothing certain then, all just vague feelings.

How does Loki trying to trick me negate the existence of Christ? Why isn't it Christ, Jeremy?

I'm not saying it isn't Christ, I'm asking you how you know it is Christ and not some other deity trying to trick you.

[jeremyp]

   

Speking as siomeone  who not only grew up in the BB, but was a BB officer for twenty four years, to say that the ethos was Christian is stretching it a bit.
Yes, we tried to convey the Object..."The Advancement of Christ's Kingdom among Boys.....etc",

So actually not stretching it at all.

If "the Advancement of Christ's Kingdom among Boys" is not a Christian ethos, what is?

but if you think there was some form of holy osmosis goin g on, forget it.

Indoctrination was simply not on the agenda; I taught the faith side in the Company for twenty years, and you can guarantee that!
If I left a Boy asking questions, then that's fine with me.
My purpose was to pen minds, not close them.

Nobody said anything about indoctrination. We just pointed out that you have been immersed in Christian culture your whole life, which is why, when you had your revelation, it's not a surprise that you went for Christianity, rather than any other religion.

[ProfessorDavey]

So actually not stretching it at all.

If "the Advancement of Christ's Kingdom among Boys" is not a Christian ethos, what is?

I think the issue here is that some people seem to misunderstand or misrepresent the level of religiosity of their upbringing on the spectrum from completely non-religious to uber-religious within the overall population.

Now if I'm being charitable I suggest this is merely not being able to have perspective if all around you are religious - the kind of person who fails to recognise that the BB are an overtly christian organisation, or that being sent to Sunday School was just what every did and wasn't really about christianity, at a time when three quarter of kids did not attend these overtly christian institutions.

But if I am being less charitable then I'd begin to see deliberate misrepresentation - specifically christians (AM and Vlad seem to be examples) trying to pass off their upbringing as non-religious to emphasise some conversion to christianity, when the reality is that they were brought up in a christian tradition, probably brought up to be christian and that is what they have become as adults, christians.

[ProfessorDavey]

As I was reading the works of CS Lewis I became aware of something behind Lewis writing and that I was tuning into it. The reality of it began to strike me. The bible which had been quaint remote and incomprehensible started to become vital, relevant and not only comprehensible but relaying the "signal".I was enthusiastic for God at that time but then Jesus began to be part of my transformation. I started praying to God about Jesus and soon guided to New testament passages where Jesus stands at the door of your life knocking and where he says to Matthew....follow me. I spent a few hours totally focused on this, trying to avoid then I had a mental picture of a pudding with no taste and knew that that's what life would be like if I denied Christ and so I told him to take it all. The mental paralysis ended  and I was overjoyed I'd found him.

And I suspect had you been brought up in an islamic tradition, and attended extra-curricular madrassa classes (rather than Sunday school) and a muslim faith school (rather than a christian faith school) then it would have been a muslim equivalent of CS Lewis who would have resonated with you and you would be talking about how the Koran suddenly made sense and that you'd started praying to Allah.

[jeremyp]

If you were born in Bracknell Berkshire you wouldn't have a hunger for the bible.

You're more likely to have a hunger for the Bible than any other religious tome.

What I am saying is my hunger for the bible was not cultural

It more than likely is though. In this country people tend to hunger for the Bible. In Pakistan, they are more likely to hunger for the Koran.

[ProfessorDavey]

If you were born in Bracknell Berkshire ...

Were you brought up in Bracknell Vlad?

[jeremyp]

I think the issue here is that some people seem to misunderstand or misrepresent the level of religiosity of their upbringing on the spectrum from completely non-religious to uber-religious within the overall population.

Now if I'm being charitable I suggest this is merely not being able to have perspective if all around you are religious - the kind of person who fails to recognise that the BB are an overtly christian organisation, or that being sent to Sunday School was just what every did and wasn't really about christianity, at a time when three quarter of kids did not attend these overtly christian institutions.

But if I am being less charitable then I'd begin to see deliberate misrepresentation - specifically christians (AM and Vlad seem to be examples) trying to pass off their upbringing as non-religious to emphasise some conversion to christianity, when the reality is that they were brought up in a christian tradition, probably brought up to be christian and that is what they have become as adults, christians.

It may be something like your accent. I don't have an accent and neither does anybody else who was brought up in the same village as me. On the other hand, I bet somebody from Leeds could easily identify that I was brought up in the South East of England from the way I talk.

I was brought up in a Christian family and I was Christian until I was about twenty. However, most of my childhood friends were fairly irreligious and yet, because we all attended the same schools, I know they were exposed to Christian ideas and the Christian Bible. We all attended the same assemblies which were usually Christian in nature (although the story about the long chopsticks is apparently not Christian). We all had religious education in which Christianity was a central focus. If you were in the cubs or scouts, you had church parades once a month and so on and so on.

If you grew up in Britain in the seventies as I did, it was impossible to escape the Christian traditions.

[ProfessorDavey]

It may be something like your accent. I don't have an accent and neither does anybody else who was brought up in the same village as me. On the other hand, I bet somebody from Leeds could easily identify that I was brought up in the South East of England from the way I talk.

That's right - it depends entirely on your ability to perceive the full spectrum of religiosity. So someone may be a regular churchgoer but somehow see themselves as being in the middle ground of religiosity as there are others far more fervent in their church, but fail to recognise that just by being a regular church goer they are already right at one end of the religiosity spectrum as less than 10% of people are churchgoers.

And of course religious organisations can be all encompassing, effectively creating entire communities that people operate in largely only engaging with other people from that community. My wife is a good example - brought up in the RCC, I think she will freely admit that it wasn't until she was about 16 that she had any meaningful engagement with non catholics, such was the reach of the RCC community. So not only were her family (obviously catholic), but their lives, social lives etc revolved around the church. She went to a catholic school at a time when such schools basically only catered for the RCC community, so all her friends were also part of that community. And this community went further still - they'd never just get a plumber, but got a catholic plumber, effectively there was a sub-set of service providers etc also from the same RCC community that they always used.

If you were brought up in that community it is perhaps little wonder that you might lack a little perspective, coming to think that everyone goes to church, attends communion classes, is confirmed, goes to chuch-organised youth clubs, mid-night mass a big deal on Christmas eve  etc etc because those are the people you see all around you - when of course that isn't the norm at all when you look at the full spectrum of religiosity.

[ProfessorDavey]

I was brought up in a Christian family and I was Christian until I was about twenty. However, most of my childhood friends were fairly irreligious and yet, because we all attended the same schools, I know they were exposed to Christian ideas and the Christian Bible. We all attended the same assemblies which were usually Christian in nature (although the story about the long chopsticks is apparently not Christian). We all had religious education in which Christianity was a central focus. If you were in the cubs or scouts, you had church parades once a month and so on and so on.

If you grew up in Britain in the seventies as I did, it was impossible to escape the Christian traditions.

Spot on - even though my family were pretty non religious the default growing up in the 70s was that there was a god and that god was the christian god. It permeated everything, even though my schooling was non faith. Assemblies were basically mini christian services with prayers, hymns etc. At my secondary school there was an annual service in the local cathedral. RE taught you about christianity and other religions, with the emphasis on the other (in other words not what we believe in). Sundays were tedious because of 'god' etc etc.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So nothing certain then, all just vague feelings.I'm not saying it isn't Christ, I'm asking you how you know it is Christ and not some other deity trying to trick you.

A new understanding of things is more than just a vague feeling. I realise we are away from numbers and into stuff that's hard to quantify.

Why would an old hebrew book suddenly become of value and comprehensive to me? Why should the emphasis be on Christ?
Of course you are the last person to ask.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So actually not stretching it at all.

If "the Advancement of Christ's Kingdom among Boys" is not a Christian ethos, what is?

Nobody said anything about indoctrination. We just pointed out that you have been immersed in Christian culture your whole life

Not nearly anywhere like you were Jeremy. You are an exception to your own rule.
What you should be asking is how people not immersed or not nearly as immersed, merely lightly sprayed now occupy the space your own theory says you should.
I was an early absentee from sunday school and I was never forced to go when I ceased to want to.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Spot on - even though my family were pretty non religious the default growing up in the 70s was that there was a god and that god was the christian god.

More like there was ''something greater'' and that was true even when CS Lewis was doing apologetic talks in the late forties and fifties

It permeated everything,

Not where I was.

even though my schooling was non faith. Assemblies were basically mini christian services with prayers, hymns etc. At my secondary school there was an annual service in the local cathedral. RE taught you about christianity and other religions, with the emphasis on the other (in other words not what we believe in). Sundays were tedious because of 'god' etc etc.

So by your own theory you should be as religious as me. RE was not considered a serious subject in secondary school when I was there and the boys took the opportunity to rag the most lenient teachers one lad depicting the disciples as a hells angel chapter. How we laughed.

Did religion permeate everything. It was a thing whereas there is zero religion now in many places where it used to be unless the religious is of the unhinged extreme variety, why they even took the religion and ethics message board from the BBC.

[ProfessorDavey]

So by your own theory you should be as religious as me.

Nope because being brought up is pretty well a necessary requirement for someone to be religious as an adult, it is not sufficient, as transmission of religiosity even for someone brought up in a religious culture is incredibly inefficient or 'leaky'. So over 40% of children brought up as christians become non religious as adults.

[ProfessorDavey]

Not where I was.

And where exactly was this Vlad - was it Bracknell as you seemed to imply in an earlier post?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I think the issue here is that some people seem to misunderstand or misrepresent the level of religiosity of their upbringing on the spectrum from completely non-religious to uber-religious within the overall population.

Now if I'm being charitable I suggest this is merely not being able to have perspective if all around you are religious - the kind of person who fails to recognise that the BB are an overtly christian organisation, or that being sent to Sunday School was just what every did and wasn't really about christianity, at a time when three quarter of kids did not attend these overtly christian institutions.

But if I am being less charitable then I'd begin to see deliberate misrepresentation - specifically christians (AM and Vlad seem to be examples) trying to pass off their upbringing as non-religious to emphasise some conversion to christianity, when the reality is that they were brought up in a christian tradition, probably brought up to be christian and that is what they have become as adults, christians.

But the mystery is surely either why are me and anchorman Christians when yours and jeremy's steepage in it seems at least similar and you profess differently? That seems to cut right across your theory.

We need to have an agreement on what it means to be immersed in religion surely because we are at odds over that.

What is the difference between becoming a Christian as an adult and conversion to Christianity as an adult?

Jeremy seems to be the one brought up in the christian tradition.

[ProfessorDavey]

Not where I was.

I suspect it was but you perhaps lacked the perspective to realise. So in your primary school (I presume this was the faith one) did you have assemblies that involved clear christian elements, such as christian hymns, prayer etc. I would be very surprised if you didn't, presuming this was back in the 70s or thereabouts, even more so with this being a faith school.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And where exactly was this Vlad - was it Bracknell as you seemed to imply in an earlier post?

You seem to want the low down on me Prof, I think it's time for you to give me an answer or two.

So, what's your favourite Sodastream flavour? Ha Ha.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I suspect it was but you perhaps lacked the perspective to realise. So in your primary school (I presume this was the faith one) did you have assemblies that involved clear christian elements, such as christian hymns, prayer etc. I would be very surprised if you didn't, presuming this was back in the 70s or thereabouts, even more so with this being a faith school.

No alter calls though, no call for repentance, nothing about the new life. Plenty of Our Father, Harold be thy name though.

[ProfessorDavey]

But the mystery is surely either why are me and anchorman Christians when yours and jeremy's steepage in it seems at least similar and you profess differently? That seems to cut right across your theory.

We need to have an agreement on what it means to be immersed in religion surely because we are at odds over that.

What is the difference between becoming a Christian as an adult and conversion to Christianity as an adult?

Jeremy seems to be the one brought up in the christian tradition.

Not really - in terms of the religiosity of upbringing I suspect mine was the least religious of me, you, AM and Jeremy. You and AM seem not to want to accept that faith schools and Sunday school implies a pretty religious upbringing, Jeremy is clear about his.

So lets assume my upbringing was non religious (it was pretty albeit within the prevailing cultural framework of the 1970s) so it would be pretty well a racing certainly that I wouldn't become religious as an adult, and that is the case.

Now you, AM and JP have had various levels of religious upbringing, so there is a possibility that you might end up religious, but only a possibility - there is about a 60/40 chance that you will/won't - so in fact in a very small sample that two of your have and one hasn't fits. Further if you do end up religious it is tracing certainty that you will retain the religion of your upbringing and both you and AM have, you were brought up within a christian tradition/sunday school etc and as adults you are christians not muslims or hindus etc. So it all fits perfectly with the prediction - remarkably so given that there are only four us us being discussed here.

[ProfessorDavey]

You seem to want the low down on me Prof, I think it's time for you to give me an answer or two.

So, what's your favourite Sodastream flavour? Ha Ha.

Well that nails you down as a child of the 70s Vlad But a question deserves an answer - I found them all pretty ghastly, in particular the 'cola' never tasted remotely like shop-brought coke.

Why are you so reluctant to confirm where you were brought up and that faith school and the non faith school were?

[ProfessorDavey]

Plenty of Our Father, Harold be thy name though.

So you were expected to recite the Lord's prayer (presumably with the CofE ending) yet seem reluctant to see your upbringing as christian. Bit like AM's refusal to recognise that being a member of a christian organisation that requires you to go to specific christian instruction rather suggests you are being brought up in a christian tradition, if not to become christian.

[ekim]

As I was reading the works of CS Lewis I became aware of something behind Lewis writing and that I was tuning into it. The reality of it began to strike me. The bible which had been quaint remote and incomprehensible started to become vital, relevant and not only comprehensible but relaying the "signal".I was enthusiastic for God at that time but then Jesus began to be part of my transformation. I started praying to God about Jesus and soon guided to New testament passages where Jesus stands at the door of your life knocking and where he says to Matthew....follow me. I spent a few hours totally focused on this, trying to avoid then I had a mental picture of a pudding with no taste and knew that that's what life would be like if I denied Christ and so I told him to take it all. The mental paralysis ended  and I was overjoyed I'd found him.

The fact that you were reading the works of C. S. Lewis seems to suggest that your 'Christian' past associations may have influenced that decision.  You didn't, for instance, read about Bahá'u'lláh and become a member of the Bahá'í Faith or  Jiddu Krishnamurti and become a Theosophist.  However, may your joy continue.

[ProfessorDavey]

The fact that you were reading the works of C. S. Lewis seems to suggest that your 'Christian' past associations may have influenced that decision.

Indeed - perhaps Vlad will let us know what, or who, led him to read CS Lewis, whose adult works (and indeed his Narnia books) are well known to be about, or heavily influence by his christian beliefs.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The fact that you were reading the works of C. S. Lewis seems to suggest that your 'Christian' past associations may have influenced that decision.  You didn't, for instance, read about Bahá'u'lláh and become a member of the Bahá'í Faith or  Jiddu Krishnamurti and become a Theosophist.  However, may your joy continue.

Any past association did nothing for me spiritually. Where I started with Lewis was his writing on the numinous or as I understood it, the feeling that there was something greater which was where I considered I was, Bahai, seems to be a variant of Islam and in a way Islam is a variant of Christianity in fact Christianity would have been fairly well known in Arabia at the time of Mohammed. Reading CS Lewis on religion, he does talk about his reading of the norse and greek divinities and later the hindu divinities but as he says they do not have Christ, and that phrase chimed with me for some reason.