Why not believe in Thor or Leprechauns?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Indeed - perhaps Vlad will let us know what, or who, led him to read CS Lewis, whose adult works (and indeed his Narnia books) are well known to be about, or heavily influence by his christian beliefs.

A close relative who had become a Christian about five years earlier sent me one of his books, Mere Christianity. I subsequently read God in the Dock, Problem of Pain and Surprised by Joy and the Screwtape letters.

[ProfessorDavey]

Any past association did nothing for me spiritually. Where I started with Lewis was his writing on the numinous or as I understood it, the feeling that there was something greater which was where I considered I was, Bahai, seems to be a variant of Islam and in a way Islam is a variant of Christianity in fact Christianity would have been fairly well known in Arabia at the time of Mohammed. Reading CS Lewis on religion, he does talk about his reading of the norse and greek divinities and later the hindu divinities but as he says they do not have Christ, and that phrase chimed with me for some reason.

I think we were wondering what led you to start reading Lewis - given that he is well known to be a christian author (in other words many of his book are about or heavily influence by christianity) I wonder what, or who led you to read his adult works. I think many people of our age (assuming then sodastream reference indicates a child of the 70s) got no further than the Narnia books, which I read as a child, and then re-read as a adult and recognised the clunkiness of the christian allegory which had, perhaps unsurprisingly evaded me at the age of ten.

[ProfessorDavey]

A close relative who had become a Christian about five years earlier sent me one of his books, Mere Christianity. I subsequently read God in the Dock, Problem of Pain and Surprised by Joy and the Screwtape letters.

Thanks - you replied, before I'd posted my last post. Is this relative you aforementioned uncle.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Thanks - you replied, before I'd posted my last post. Is this relative you aforementioned uncle.

No he was converted in the late 1930's as a student at University.

[ProfessorDavey]

No he was converted in the late 1930's as a student at University.

You seem rather obsessed with this notion of 'conversion' - so in your eyes, you converted, your uncle converted, this mysterious relative of yours converted. So none were brought up as christians then? Or were they all (including you) brought up in a christian culture as christians, perhaps rebelled as teenagers and were comfortably back in the fold as adults (just like your idol CS Lewis).

If your family contains three people brought up in a non religious manner who actually converted to christianity you'd represent a remarkable statistical quirk. Research indicates that just 1% of active christians in the UK were brought up in a non religious manner - for of the approx. 2 million active christians that would be just 20,000 people or one in one thousand of the approx. 12million people who say their upbringing was non religious.

So if this is a one in a thousand chance, three close members in one family all converting from a non religious upbringing to becoming christians represents perhaps a one in a billion likelihood.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

You seem rather obsessed with this notion of 'conversion' - so in your eyes, you converted, your uncle converted, this mysterious relative of yours converted. So none were brought up as christians then? Or were they all (including you) brought up in a christian culture, perhaps rebelled as teenagers and were comfortably back in the fold as adults (just like your idol CS Lewis).

If your family contains three people brought up in a non religious manner who actually converted to christianity you'd represent a remarkable statistical quirk. Research indicates that just 1% of active christians in the UK were brought up in a non religious manner - for of the approx. 2 million active christians that would be just 20,000 people or one in one thousand of the approx. 12million people who say their upbringing was non religious.

So if this is a one in a thousand chance, three close members in one family all converting from a non religious upbringing to becoming christians represents perhaps a one in a billion likelihood.

Basically your argument is that any cultural Christianity must lead to someone becoming a christian as an adult but that is plainly not the case since some reject their faith , some don't really have one and never have one.

Experiencing conversion is nothing like this imho, although it can happen over time. Something is encountered. Also God doesn't work to statistics, He does not work like an empirical thing. Since religions which grow quickly, convert, as demonstrated in China since 1950 with Christianity.

Again it all depends on what one means by a religious upbringing.

[ProfessorDavey]

Basically your argument is that any cultural Christianity must lead to someone becoming a christian as an adult ...

No I'm not - that is ridiculous. Pretty well everyone in the UK is embedded in a culturally christian environment. That isn't the same as a religious upbringing.

If you are brought up as a christian you may retain that christian upbringing as an adult or you may not - there is about a 60:40 chance of the former and latter. If you are brought up in a non religious manner (regardless of whether cultural christianity is around and about) your chance of being religious as an adult is tiny.

[ProfessorDavey]

Again it all depends on what one means by a religious upbringing.

Well I would have thought choosing to send your child to a CofE faith school (I suspect other options were available in Bracknell) and certainly choosing to send you child to Sunday School are pretty good indications of a religious upbringing.

And you still haven't answered me about the latter - what is your explanation for your parents sending you to Sunday School, except that they wanted their child to have a religious element to their upbringing.

[ProfessorDavey]

Also God doesn't work to statistics, He does not work like an empirical thing.

Well he is pretty bad at that conversion thing, isn't he given that just a tiny percentage of christians in the UK (and I suspect in most other places with a stable freedom of religion history) weren't brought up to be christians. I think he needs to try a little harder in this conversion stuff, don't you.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No I'm not - that is ridiculous. Pretty well everyone in the UK is embedded in a culturally christian environment. That isn't the same as how they are brought up. It is the upbringing.

In science both would be considered environmental factors with a hefty load of overlap. Another word for it would be nature or nurture. I think you are seeing this a a simple set of parameters. It isn't. That's why in sociology there needs to be an agreed definition and if that definition isn't that er,definate that is how, as social science, it has to be.

If you are brought up as a christian you may retain that christian upbringing as an adult or you may not

This immediately rejects the reports of people that they reject their faith or come back to it and with all due respect your shoe horning me into the same category as, say Jeremy [/quote] - there is about a 60:40 chance of the former and latter. If you are brought up in a non religious manner (regardless of whether cultural christianity is around and about) your chance of being religious as an adult is tiny.
[/quote] Citation please.

[ProfessorDavey]

Another word for it would be nature or nurture.

It is nurture - there is no 'christian' gene.

[ProfessorDavey]

In science both would be considered environmental factors with a hefty load of overlap.

Both living in a country which is culturally christian and being brought up christian are both aspects of nature. But the former is pretty well irrelevant in generating adult christians, it is the latter that matters - unless you are brought up religious (in this case christian) you have nigh on zero chance of ending up christian as an adult.

But even if you are brought up christian it doesn't come close to guaranteeing that you will be christian as an adult, with about 40 out of every 100 people brought up as christians choosing to be non religious as adults.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Well I would have thought choosing to send your child to a CofE faith school (I suspect other options were available in Bracknell)

I got sent there because my childhood years were spent in a village. We only got a car in 1964 and my mum never drove. You are superimposing todays lifestyle on the 1960's. and certainly choosing to send you child to Sunday School are pretty good indications of a religious upbringing. But is school upbringing? And does a couple of hours count. Is it not just part of the cultural environment? Isn't upbringing what goes on in the home.

And you still haven't answered me about the latter - what is your explanation for your parents sending you to Sunday School, except that they wanted their child to have a religious element to their upbringing.

Since Christians were not regarded as dangerous monsters in those days it was a great way for a working mother and father to offload the kids.

If your parents insulated you from religion do you not think that explains your desire to do so as an adult?  Or are you just specially pleading religion.

[ProfessorDavey]

Citation please.

Any number - various analyses of the regular British Social Attitudes survey, a variety of works by David Voas and also research from the (catholic) St Mary's University, Twickenham Centre for Religion and Society. None are what you might call campaigning groups - so I'm not quoting from NSS or HumanistUK although they may also pick up on this research.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Both living in a country which is culturally christian and being brought up christian are both aspects of nature. But the former is pretty well irrelevant in generating adult christians, it is the latter that matters - unless you are brought up religious (in this case christian) you have nigh on zero chance of ending up christian as an adult.

But even if you are brought up christian it doesn't come close to guaranteeing that you will be christian as an adult, with about 40 out of every 100 people brought up as christians choosing to be non religious as adults.

I know. But if that is a british statistic. Britain has been secular for decades. Dawkins knew this, The BHA knew it that's why they've wanted the census changed.

I suggest to you again that your own beliefs are culturally imparted and Christians are the subversives here.

[ProfessorDavey]

I got sent there because my childhood years were spent in a village.

The school was in the village? The only school in the village? Why the mention of Bracknell if you were living in a village, or was this on the outskirts of Bracknell.

[ProfessorDavey]

But is school upbringing? And does a couple of hours count. Is it not just part of the cultural environment? Isn't upbringing what goes on in the home.

Decisions parents make about schooling are clearly elements of upbringing - for example whether to send a child to a private school, or single sex school or faith school - each represents a conscious decision of the parents.

But we are talking about Sunday School - there is no requirement for parents to send their child to Sunday school, unlike normal school so there can be no 'is was the local school argument' - your parents must have had a reason to choose to send you to Sunday school, unlike three quarters of parents at that time. And I'm struggling to see any plausible reason other than they wanted a christian upbringing for their child. And they may well have wanted this regardless of whether they were themselves particularly religious at that stage.

[ProfessorDavey]

I got sent there because my childhood years were spent in a village. We only got a car in 1964 and my mum never drove. You are superimposing todays lifestyle on the 1960's.

No I'm not superimposing today's lifestyle.

I also living in a village when I reached school age. My mum also never drove and my Dad was at work so school had to be walking distance. In my case there were a couple of options within 1970s walking distance (about a mile) - my parents chose to send me to the non-faith school.

We then moved to the edge of a larger town - there were rather more options within walking distance - again my parents chose to sen me to the non faith primary school.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

The school was in the village? The only school in the village? Why the mention of Bracknell if you were living in a village, or was this on the outskirts of Bracknell.

Village not on the outskirts of Bracknell or even the New town I did move to aged 12 and three quarters.
My brother who was still at the village primary school C of E went to the local non religious primary across the road.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Decisions parents make about schooling are clearly elements of upbringing - for example whether to send a child to a private school, or single sex school or faith school - each represents a conscious decision of the parents.

But we are talking about Sunday School - there is no requirement for parents to send their child to Sunday school,

And no requirement not to. As I said Christians were not considered the dodgy types they are considered today.

Parents send their kids  unlike normal school so there can be no 'is was the local school argument' - your parents must have had a reason to sunday school,

when we moved to the new town most kids spent sunday at the adventure playground run by the urban district council supervision and I went there as an early teenager

to choose to send you to Sunday school, unlike three quarters of parents at that time. And I'm struggling to see any plausible reason other than they wanted a christian upbringing for their child. And they may well have wanted this regardless of whether they were themselves particularly religious at that stage.

That doesn't explain why my uncle was chaperoned so as not to spread his religion. How on Earth can a couple of hours on a sunday be an upbringing? I fear you have lost it somewhere.

[ProfessorDavey]

And no requirement not to.

Indeed, and there is no requirement not to sent children to jewish scripture classes or islamic madrassa classes. It is pretty hard to argue that parents choosing to send their children to any religious instruction classes are doing it other than because they'd like their child to have religious instruction within that religion.

[ProfessorDavey]

That doesn't explain why my uncle was chaperoned so as not to spread his religion.

Perhaps your parents were a bit wary of his rather extreme approach to religion. Vlad, it isn't normal to bring religious literature when you visit your nephew. Clearly your parents preferred a more mainstream (as they saw it) route to inculcate christianity into you - by sending you to sunday school.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Indeed, and there is no requirement not to sent children to jewish scripture classes or islamic madrassa classes. It is pretty hard to argue that parents choosing to send their children to any religious instruction classes are doing it other than because they'd like their child to have religious instruction within that religion.

Your comparison with sunday school and the the literary scholarship of a jewish or islamic  scripture class is overplayed.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Perhaps your parents were a bit wary of his rather extreme approach to religion. Vlad, it isn't normal to bring religious literature when you visit your nephew. Clearly your parents preferred a more mainstream (as they saw it) route to inculcate christianity into you - by sending you to sunday school.

Clearly?...........This is your attempt to shoehorn me in with JeremyP.

[ProfessorDavey]

How on Earth can a couple of hours on a sunday be an upbringing?

It is part of it, along with the school assemblies, where you were praying, singing hymns etc. Also your attendance at religious services - you seem a little mazy on details on this, which seems a little convenient. When you are brought up in a non religious environment you are pretty clear on the few occasions you attended a religious service, as it was so unusual. In my case a couple of Christmasses (when we were staying with my religious grandparents or Aunt), the annual school service ... and well, that's it. I don't think I went to any christenings, church weddings, nor religious funerals as a child.