Why not believe in Thor or Leprechauns?

[Stranger]

That is not Christianity.

Yet nothing you say actually contradicts it...

Adam or man is the one who spoils the relationship, his legacy, Human society is despoiled as a result of it and all humans suffer from the acts of humans who come before.....say that ain't so

It obviously isn't so, but if it was it would make god manifestly unjust for making later generations pay for the sins of previous ones. Every bit as daft as the literal fruit eating.

In order to take sin on himself

More insane sadomasochistic injustice. Killing somebody for supposed wrong doing is unjust anyway, killing somebody else, doubly so, and doing it to right a wrong that was the result god's injustice in the first place (see above), just adds to the utter insanity of the whole thing.

[Dicky Underpants]

More insane sadomasochistic injustice. Killing somebody for supposed wrong doing is unjust anyway, killing somebody else, doubly so, and doing it to right a wrong that was the result god's injustice in the first place (see above), just adds to the utter insanity of the whole thing.

One wonders why this happened at that specific point in time. Why did God suddenly decide it was appropriate for his Son to die? What about the generations before? Do they get the benefit? Of course, we mustn't forget that his Son is also himself, for Christ is God too. That makes it all that much clearer.
I make no apologies for ridiculing the doctrine of the Atonement, which has always seemed to me incomprehensible nonsense. However, I certainly don't mock the figure of the historical Jesus, as much as we can know anything for certain about him (which isn't a huge amount).

[jeremyp]

You can only have a personal relationship because of what Christ did on the cross that is God taking on sin on himself in Jesus Christ.

That doesn't answer the question. Why do you need a mediator for a personal relationship with God?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yet nothing you say actually contradicts it...

It obviously isn't so, but if it was it would make god manifestly unjust for making later generations pay for the sins of previous ones. Every bit as daft as the literal fruit eating.

More insane sadomasochistic injustice. Killing somebody for supposed wrong doing is unjust anyway, killing somebody else, doubly so, and doing it to right a wrong that was the result god's injustice in the first place (see above), just adds to the utter insanity of the whole thing.

So do you think you should therefore suffer the effects of your own sin?
Rather than for God to take them upon himself? The separation from God is man's doing and injustice. Your wrong doing is your injustice. We just repeat what our ancestors did and so it goes.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

That doesn't answer the question. Why do you need a mediator for a personal relationship with God?

Christ is the mediator to the Father. As Jesus says no one comes to the father accept through him I think you keep forgetting that Jesus is God.
When Christ died he opened the way for a personal relationship. He is not going to force it. The crucixion is God's way of telling us he has taken our sins and removed the path to the Father reversing the work of Adam. The way to God is now open.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

One wonders why this happened at that specific point in time. Why did God suddenly decide it was appropriate for his Son to die? What about the generations before? Do they get the benefit? Of course, we mustn't forget that his Son is also himself, for Christ is God too. That makes it all that much clearer.
I make no apologies for ridiculing the doctrine of the Atonement, which has always seemed to me incomprehensible nonsense. However, I certainly don't mock the figure of the historical Jesus, as much as we can know anything for certain about him (which isn't a huge amount).

Christ taking on sin is an eternal act and Good for all people.

[ProfessorDavey]

Christ taking on sin is an eternal act and Good for all people.

Collected, inherited guilt:

Invented by JudeoChristianity - used throughout the ages by tyrants, racists, misogynists etc to justify genocide, racism, misogyny etc ever since.

[ProfessorDavey]

I think you keep forgetting that Jesus is God.

Vlad - I think you keep forgetting that there is no evidence that god even exists.

[Stranger]

So do you think you should therefore suffer the effects of your own sin?
Rather than for God to take them upon himself?

Somewhat irrelevant to the absurdity and injustice.

I don't believe there is such a choice to be made, but if I imagined for a moment that there was, then I'll take responsibility for what I've done (within the limitations of being human) if god takes responsibility for the crap design (of the world in general and humans in particular).

The separation from God is man's doing and injustice.

Nope. There is no 'man' (in the sense of the whole species) that can do anything that is unjust. I never ate the wrong fruit, nor am I responsible for anybody else's choices, including previous generations.

[jeremyp]

Christ is the mediator to the Father. As Jesus says no one comes to the father accept through him I think you keep forgetting that Jesus is God.

No, I think it is you who is forgetting that. If Jesus is God, you are saying he mediates between you and himself.

When Christ died he opened the way for a personal relationship. He is not going to force it. The crucixion is God's way of telling us he has taken our sins and removed the path to the Father reversing the work of Adam. The way to God is now open.

Why didn't he just tell you? Why didn't he just say "I have taken your sins on"? Having to arrange for his own temporary execution seems somewhat bizarre.

[Stranger]

...reversing the work of Adam.

What does that mean? I don't think you believe in a literal magic garden with a talking snake and all that, so what exactly is "the work of Adam", what is it that actually happened that needs reversing?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What does that mean? I don't think you believe in a literal magic garden with a talking snake and all that, so what exactly is "the work of Adam", what is it that actually happened that needs reversing?

IMHO The ancestral alienation from God. It is obvious that those who have gone back have spoilt things for those that have followed going way back in human history.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

No, I think it is you who is forgetting that. If Jesus is God, you are saying he mediates between you and himself.
Why didn't he just tell you? Why didn't he just say "I have taken your sins on"? Having to arrange for his own temporary execution seems somewhat bizarre.

I'm saying there was an act of mediation. Christ on the cross. I have just taken your sins on?  Incarnation makes more sense namely God as sufferer on account of absorbing the costs inflicted by human sin and alienation. Jesus exchanges his life for the believer's according to  St Athenasius and I think there's a lot to that..

[Dicky Underpants]

Christ taking on sin is an eternal act and Good for all people.

And yet above you say "when Christ died he opened the way for a personal relationship. He isn't going to force it."
This of course is the "At one ment" - and now you state it IS an act which began in time. He could hardly be inviting an unforced personal relationship with dead people.

[ProfessorDavey]

I'm saying there was an act of mediation. Christ on the cross. I have just taken your sins on?  Incarnation makes more sense namely God as sufferer on account of absorbing the costs inflicted by human sin and alienation. Jesus exchanges his life for the believer's according to  St Athenasius and I think there's a lot to that..

Considering the kind of gobbledegook you come out with it is little wonder that the only people (except in the rarest of cases) who believe this kind of nonsense as adults are those who were brought up to believe it as children.

[Stranger]

IMHO The ancestral alienation from God. It is obvious that those who have gone back have spoilt things for those that have followed going way back in human history.

Which would mean that we are being punished for the 'sins' of former generations, which makes god unjust again.

[Stranger]

I'm saying there was an act of mediation. Christ on the cross. I have just taken your sins on?  Incarnation makes more sense namely God as sufferer on account of absorbing the costs inflicted by human sin and alienation. Jesus exchanges his life for the believer's according to  St Athenasius and I think there's a lot to that..

It's insane, incoherent nonsense. God deciding to incarnate and making sure it gets tortured to death in order to 'forgive' us for being the way god made us in the first place? Just think about it.

Come to think of it, it would actually make slightly more sense if god actually felt the need to punish itself for being so unjust as to separate the whole of humanity from it due to the actions of people in the past. Sort of divine self-flagellation.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

It's insane, incoherent nonsense. God deciding to incarnate and making sure it gets tortured to death in order to 'forgive' us for being the way god made us in the first place? Just think about it.

Come to think of it, it would actually make slightly more sense if god actually felt the need to punish itself for being so unjust as to separate the whole of humanity from it due to the actions of people in the past. Sort of divine self-flagellation.

I think it is an error to believe wrong doing doesn't hurt or debase the perpetrator hence Jesus death. It was Socrates I think who ventured that if a perfect human appeared there would be a desire to put that person to death (The ultimate in Goddodgeing, perhaps). Regards self punishment. I have heard of that being advanced in christian theology circles.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Which would mean that we are being punished for the 'sins' of former generations, which makes god unjust again.

No, It means we are blighted by the actions of our ancestors. Christ has overturned that alienation anyway and the way to God is open should you so choose.

We suffer in this life as a consequence of former generations. That is cause and effect.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Considering the kind of gobbledegook you come out with it is little wonder that the only people (except in the rarest of cases) who believe this kind of nonsense as adults are those who were brought up to believe it as children.

What an informed, technical, mature objection, Davey.......Not.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

And yet above you say "when Christ died he opened the way for a personal relationship. He isn't going to force it."
This of course is the "At one ment" - and now you state it IS an act which began in time. He could hardly be inviting an unforced personal relationship with dead people.

No, I'm saying it is an eternal act.

[ProfessorDavey]

I think it is an error to believe wrong doing doesn't hurt or debase the perpetrator hence Jesus death.

But the basic tenet of christianity is that everyone is presumed to have done wrong before the fact - that is, in my, opinion morally bankrupt, deeply unjust and massively dangerous when that concept is embedded in a society.

Judge an individual on the basis of what that individual has done. Do not judge an individual on the basis of what some other person who might have been related to them did countless generations ago.

[Outrider]

That is not Christianity.

It is. It's not the emphasis you choose to put on it, but it's a reasonable description of the story.

Adam or man is the one who spoils the relationship, his legacy.

How can Adam be punished for wrongdoing when he was made with no capacity for understanding of wrongdoing?

Human society is despoiled as a result of it and all humans suffer from the acts of humans who come before....

And yet the societies that have moved away from Christianity and other religions are the ones where the suffering is demonstrably the least.

In order to take sin on himself His humanity is resurrected by divinity.

Why is a blood sacrifice necessary for (unwarranted) forgiveness?

Was Dead now risen from dead.

Three day sacrifice... that was definitely a sacrifice sufficient to fundamentally alter the psycho-spiritual destiny of humanity for all eternity... oh, wait, no, that's a particularly bad Bacardi Breezer bender.

Not magically that would be the case if God just magickly waived the consequences of sin away without taking it on himself.

Was there medical intervention? Was there some sort of first-aid applied? What process was used to reconstruct the broken down neurons which started to degrade with lack of oxygen? Or was this just some divine handwaving... the Resurrection is depicted as one of God/Jesus' miracles, that sort of definitionally makes it magic.

O.

[ProfessorDavey]

What an informed, technical, mature objection, Davey.......Not.

Fine - so if you religions message is so compelling why is it almost entirely unknown for people not brought up to believe it to believe it as adults.

Rather than blame the critic (i.e. me and others), rather than blame the messenger (you didn't get the right christian instruction), rather than blame the believer (no true christian non-sense) why don't you take a long and hard look at the actual message.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

But the basic tenet of christianity is that everyone is presumed to have done wrong before the fact - that is, in my, opinion morally bankrupt, deeply unjust and massively dangerous when that concept is embedded in a society.

Is it I can't find that straight away the presumption is that everyone has fallen short. The orthodox idea is that everyone is blighted as a consequence and suffers in this life and does not presume post mortem punishment for Adam's personal sin.

Judge an individual on the basis of what that individual has done. Do not judge an individual on the basis of what some other person who might have been related to them did countless generations ago.

Christ has overturned the ''work of Adam'', which is separation from God without hope.