Author Topic: Matter from Light  (Read 3016 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Matter from Light
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2021, 10:50:11 AM »


What 'scientific' method do you people suggest to verify whether the patients have actually witnessed an after-life?
Why should I do your work for you? You are the one making the claim. You come up with the method.
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Sriram

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Re: Matter from Light
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2021, 09:34:14 AM »



I am not making any claim. I am pointing out that thousands of people have experiences of an after-life that are extraordinarily similar. If you believe that is not true...you must suggest methods of proving them wrong instead of merely dismissing their claims and coming up with inane brain related explanations. 

No one has proved beyond doubt that NDE's are merely a brain generated phenomena.....so you cannot keep projecting that as the default or foregone conclusion.   

Stranger

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Re: Matter from Light
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2021, 09:50:14 AM »
I am not making any claim. I am pointing out that thousands of people have experiences of an after-life that are extraordinarily similar.

That is a claim. An extraordinary one at that, and for which you have provided zero evidence. The only fact we have is that many people have had similar recollections after near-death events. You are claiming that your explanation for those recollections is correct.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Matter from Light
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2021, 09:50:46 AM »
I am not making any claim. I am pointing out that thousands of people have experiences of an after-life that are extraordinarily similar.
You are indeed making a claim and you have made it in this very sentence:

'I am pointing out that thousands of people have experiences of an after-life...'

That is an unsubstantiated claim that the phenomenon that is pretty well reported is an experience of an after-life. You have no evidence for this as there are other explanations for those phenomena - and indeed those other explanations have evidence to back them up associated with neurological function under extreme stress conditions. And you make a further claim about the notion that these phenomena are extraordinarily similar in support of your unevidenced supposition of an afterlife. I would agree that there are some similarities in the phenomena experienced, but that doesn't back up your assertion at all as these phenomena are also experienced in other extreme stress conditions that are not 'near death' at all.

So if you want to make a claim that these phenomena are associated with an afterlife then the onus is on you to bring forward valid, objective, reliable and reproducible methods to test that. The kind of valid, objective, reliable and reproducible methods that are generating evidence to suggest that these phenomena are associated with extreme neurological stress which occurs, but is not limited to, near death processes. And the 'not limited to' part severely undermines any claim of an afterlife experience.

Sriram

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Re: Matter from Light
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2021, 05:06:01 AM »

Thousands of people have had certain similar experiences and these need to be investigated. This is being done by qualified doctors and psychologists like Sam Parnia and Raymond Moody..... in the manner in which such phenomena can be best investigated.

Your foregone conclusion that it has to be brain related hallucinations....is the wrong conclusion.  It is an attitude problem.

No one has arrived at any definitive conclusions on this.  It is equally possible that it is really an after-life experience.   





 

 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 05:24:25 AM by Sriram »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Matter from Light
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2021, 09:51:21 AM »
Thousands of people have had certain similar experiences and these need to be investigated.
Indeed they have (including many people who are not 'near death') and indeed they are being investigated using rigorous and robust scientific methods.

This is being done by qualified doctors and psychologists like Sam Parnia and Raymond Moody..... in the manner in which such phenomena can be best investigated.
Actually the best way to try to understand how these phenomena arise is to look at whether they are linked to particular neurological activities, and if so whether we can understand what physiological processes trigger that neurological activity and hence the experience of the phenomena. That work is ongoing and has demonstrated specific types on brain activity associated with experiencing phenomena of this type, and is associated with certain extreme physiological stress which occurs 'near death' linked to the process of dying, but also in a range of other major stress situations that have nothing to do with dying.

Your foregone conclusion that it has to be brain related hallucinations...
First, it isn't a foregone conclusion, it is an explanation based on evidence. Secondly I don't think the term hallucinations is really the right one and I would opine that you are using it in a pejorative manner to belittle the explanation. What I am talking about is neurological activities demonstrated to be associated with the phenomena experienced both by people close to death but in other circumstances that produce similarly extreme neurophysiological stress.

is the wrong conclusion.
Blimey now who is jumping to conclusions - you cannot simply ignore evidence just because it doesn't fit with your prejudices and foregone conclusions. 

It is an attitude problem.
Indeed it is - a clear attitude problem that you demonstrate in sticking your fingers in your ears shouting 'I'm not listening, I'm not listening' when rigorous and robust evidence is placed before you that doesn't fit with your foregone conclusions. People with the right attitude base their conclusions on evidence, people with the wrong attitude start with a conclusion (regardless of any evidence for it) and ignore any evidence that doesn't fit their conclusion, while often clutching at straws and cherry picking the flimsiest of poor quality evidence that they see as supporting their prejudged conclusion.

No one has arrived at any definitive conclusions on this.
True - although there is some pretty strong evidence to support these phenomena being associated with extreme physiological stress and linked neurological activity. 

It is equally possible that it is really an after-life experience.
It is not equally possible as there is no evidence to support your assertion while there is ample evidence to support the scientific theory I've indicated.   
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 10:25:26 AM by ProfessorDavey »

Sriram

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Re: Matter from Light
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2021, 03:49:18 AM »

An after-life is certainly more likely than a silly brain related explanation!  ::) 

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Matter from Light
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2021, 09:09:56 AM »
An after-life is certainly more likely than a silly brain related explanation!  ::)
Silly brain related explanation - you know like the silly brain related explanation for dreams, or the silly brain related explanation for perception, or the silly brain related explanation for emotions etc etc.

You know all those explanations based on solid, reliable, objective, repeatable evidence. Unlike your completely unevidenced assertion which is, frankly, what you wish to be true - but wishful thinking doesn't get us to explanations, evidence does.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2021, 11:12:04 AM by ProfessorDavey »