Author Topic: Materialism  (Read 19082 times)

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #150 on: November 18, 2021, 10:20:45 AM »
If they can be felt and experienced, that means that they are known to the senses.  Experience is derived from sensory information, ultimately.
Yes I was wondering about that too. I asked Vlad what he meant by "exploring" ideas. As in how do we know we are exploring something unless we can sense that we are exploring it and detect an experience corresponding to that exploration. I was asking Vlad how he would instruct someone to explore - e.g. what steps would they follow. And if they followed those steps and did not feel what he felt when he followed those steps, what would that signify to him. He has not answered yet.

For example individual morality is often linked by psychologists to involuntary feelings of disgust - a sense of nausea or wanting to expel something from our body in response to the emotion we call disgust - it could be triggered by a thought. Small experiments on volunteer subjects have indicated that feelings of disgust can be controlled and reduced or excited by stimulating a certain part of the brain with an electric current from a magnetic field. This needs to be tested further in bigger trials.

I would be interested to know what is sensed about reality and how Sriram identifies that he is sensing something about reality that other people aren't sensing and what he thinks he is using to sense it?
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #151 on: November 18, 2021, 10:37:12 AM »
Yes I was wondering about that too. I asked Vlad what he meant by "exploring" ideas. As in how do we know we are exploring something unless we can sense that we are exploring it and detect an experience corresponding to that exploration. I was asking Vlad how he would instruct someone to explore - e.g. what steps would they follow. And if they followed those steps and did not feel what he felt when he followed those steps, what would that signify to him. He has not answered yet.

For example individual morality is often linked by psychologists to involuntary feelings of disgust - a sense of nausea or wanting to expel something from our body in response to the emotion we call disgust - it could be triggered by a thought. Small experiments on volunteer subjects have indicated that feelings of disgust can be controlled and reduced or excited by stimulating a certain part of the brain with an electric current from a magnetic field. This needs to be tested further in bigger trials.

I would be interested to know what is sensed about reality and how Sriram identifies that he is sensing something about reality that other people aren't sensing and what he thinks he is using to sense it?
Absolutely - if we feel and experience something then it must relate to some alteration in our physiology or we wouldn't be feeling or experiencing it.

While there is a lot of work going on in this area, from neuroscience through to behavioural science and neuro-psychology I think we have some way to go before we get close to fully understanding the relationships between what we feel and experience and the underlying biology of feeling and experiencing. But underlying biology there certainly will be.

Sriram

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #152 on: November 18, 2021, 11:39:44 AM »



Yes....I am sure there have been brain mapping or other types of research on spiritual experiences.  That is not new. But the moment the experience is recorded on some instrument...all atheists jump up and down in glee.... 'See, it is just something in the brain...nothing spiritual or nonphysical about it'.


Sriram

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #153 on: November 18, 2021, 11:45:32 AM »

Secondly, 'experience' is not just about some feeling of thrill or joy or whatever.  There are lots of other things such as a prior knowledge of events, events happening almost miraculously, the feeling of presence of a superior being and so on. These cannot be researched but only experienced personally. 

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #154 on: November 18, 2021, 11:50:03 AM »
Yes....I am sure there have been brain mapping or other types of research on spiritual experiences.  That is not new. But the moment the experience is recorded on some instrument...all atheists jump up and down in glee.... 'See, it is just something in the brain...nothing spiritual or nonphysical about it'.
Firstly I doubt atheists are jumping up and down in glee. However all people interesting in extending and expanding our understanding will be interested in the findings, which demonstrate that the phenomena you describe are associated with alternations in our physiology that we can study and measure. What's not to like in understanding a little more about them ... unless the evidence undermines your prejudged conclusions about what these phenomena are ;)

And whether they are 'spiritual' or not - well frankly Sriran, spiritual is a term created by humans and can have a wide variety of definitions - see VG's list on another thread. If you want to describe them as 'spiritual', that's up to you but I won't use that word about them if that's all the same to you. However if you claim that they are unrelated to physical processes within our bodies, our physiology etc then I'm afraid that the evidence demonstrates that you are wrong. Perhaps that's why you seem to want to ignore the evidence.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #155 on: November 18, 2021, 12:36:35 PM »
VG,

Quote
Yes I was wondering about that too. I asked Vlad what he meant by "exploring" ideas. As in how do we know we are exploring something unless we can sense that we are exploring it and detect an experience corresponding to that exploration. I was asking Vlad how he would instruct someone to explore - e.g. what steps would they follow. And if they followed those steps and did not feel what he felt when he followed those steps, what would that signify to him. He has not answered yet.

For example individual morality is often linked by psychologists to involuntary feelings of disgust - a sense of nausea or wanting to expel something from our body in response to the emotion we call disgust - it could be triggered by a thought. Small experiments on volunteer subjects have indicated that feelings of disgust can be controlled and reduced or excited by stimulating a certain part of the brain with an electric current from a magnetic field. This needs to be tested further in bigger trials.

I would be interested to know what is sensed about reality and how Sriram identifies that he is sensing something about reality that other people aren't sensing and what he thinks he is using to sense it?

Yes, when they finally run out of road the woo merchants here claim to have special powers that the rest of us lack that enable them to experience their various phenomenological assertions. Vlad claimed something similar here recently, but ran away when questioned about it.

Quite what these magic metaphysical goggles might be and how we’re supposed to test this claim is anyone’s guess – we’re just expected to take their word for it it seems.   
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Sriram

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #156 on: November 18, 2021, 12:38:51 PM »


This will go on forever Prof D. Is it really a 'spiritual' experience? Where does it originate? Is it God who makes it happen?   

The point is that those who have such experiences feel fulfilled, happy and full of hope and faith. What it actually is we are not likely to know. It probably doesn't matter.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #157 on: November 18, 2021, 01:08:36 PM »
Sriram,
Quote
Yes....I am sure there have been brain mapping or other types of research on spiritual experiences.  That is not new. But the moment the experience is recorded on some instrument...all atheists jump up and down in glee.... 'See, it is just something in the brain...nothing spiritual or nonphysical about it'.

It’s not atheists, just rationalists – and no-one’s jumping up and down about it. When an experiential phenomenon can be explained with evidence as a physiological event why reject the explanation?   

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Secondly, 'experience' is not just about some feeling of thrill or joy or whatever.  There are lots of other things such as a prior knowledge of events,…

And your evidence for that claim would be?

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…events happening almost miraculously,…

Rare and surprising things happen all the time and require no “miracles”. So?

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the feeling of presence of a superior being and so on.

A “feeling” of “presence of a superior being” doesn’t mean there is a presence or superior being – just that it feels that way.

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These cannot be researched but only experienced personally.

Except of course by “experience” you’re jumping straight to the narrative explanation for the experience with no connecting logic or evidence to get you there.

Apart from all that though…
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 01:12:22 PM by bluehillside Retd. »
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bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #158 on: November 18, 2021, 01:10:53 PM »
Sriram,

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This will go on forever...

It will go on for as long a you continue to refuse to engage with the arguments and learn from your mistakes - which on current evidence may indeed be forever.   
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #159 on: November 18, 2021, 01:19:20 PM »
This will go on forever Prof D. Is it really a 'spiritual' experience? Where does it originate? Is it God who makes it happen?   

The point is that those who have such experiences feel fulfilled, happy and full of hope and faith. What it actually is we are not likely to know. It probably doesn't matter.
Actually it does matter - because while you, in a rather PollyAnna-ish fashion have focussed on the good stuff feelings and experiences can be negative too - so for example people can feel fearful, anxious etc etc.

And sometimes positive or negative feelings are detached from an obvious reason - I'm happy because I just got married, I'm fearful because I just lost my job etc etc. And this is often because the physiology which makes us feel these things becomes uncoupled from the triggers that should drive them. And if we understand those links we can begin to help people with depression, chronic anxiety etc etc either through medication that directly target the known physiology or other therapies that can influence that physiology.

And you won't be surprised to learn that I do not consider that it is god who makes it happen as I do not believe that god exists.

Outrider

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #160 on: November 18, 2021, 01:24:32 PM »
Yes....I am sure there have been brain mapping or other types of research on spiritual experiences.

I'm not sure 'spiritual' is a term that science would necessarily use - brain mapping involves measuring neurological events, which could be tied to claims of experience, memories and emotions.

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That is not new. But the moment the experience is recorded on some instrument...all atheists jump up and down in glee.... 'See, it is just something in the brain...nothing spiritual or nonphysical about it'.

No, it's in the brain and I'm not sure that's in any way been disputed in recent times. The question is about - to perhaps oversimplify a little - how it gets into the brain. The mapping will be compared against previous mapping exercises to see if there's a discernible pattern to identify the likely source of any given activity - what's lacking at the moment is any sort of reliable evidence for something as a source which is outside of established recorded sources.

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Secondly, 'experience' is not just about some feeling of thrill or joy or whatever.

Again, you're sort of missing the point in this context; generally, yes, there are people looking at the subjective understanding of the experience to try to identify patterns in the measured activity related to it. In this discussion, though, we're looking for the stimuli that cause both the emotional and neurological responses.

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There are lots of other things such as a prior knowledge of events,

For which there is no reliable evidence that such a thing has happened, and in the instances where claimants have been tested they have reliable fared at best no better than chance.

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...events happening almost miraculously,

Almost miraculously? Ultimately, even 'actually' miraculously is just an admission that we don't know how it happened. By definition it gives us no idea of the cause; if it did, it wouldn't be a miracle, it'd be an explicable event with a defined cause. 'Miracle' is just an attempt to elevate ignorance to profundity.

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...the feeling of presence of a superior being and so on.

Again, easily attributable to the established hereditary benefit of Type II errors for human survival, but even failing that the sense of presence of a superior being is not necessarily a reliable indicator of the actual presence of a superior being, or the existence of a superior being. There are other, more viable explanations.

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These cannot be researched but only experienced personally.

No, they can be researched. Even events that have previously been experienced but not, say, recorded can be investigated to a degree, which is part of how we can establish that there is a common neurochemical and behavioural link between people who have certain experiences which are not validated by the observable phenomena - then we can get an understanding that certain conditions are characterised by, say, hallucinations. It's not a guarantee that any given example fits, but it accounts for at least some.

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Is it really a 'spiritual' experience?

On the available evidence, probably not. You either need to explain how science could investigate that it is (formulate a testable hypothesis) or you need to come up with an alternative methodology to demonstrate that it is. Otherwise, current convention is that it's most likely just some aberrant brain activity.

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Where does it originate? Is it God who makes it happen?

If you want to claim it's from 'god', you need to demonstrate god, or you need to demonstrate a reliable, inextricable link between the activity and the scenario in circumstances that rule out aberrant brain behaviour.   Or an alternative methodology.

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The point is that those who have such experiences feel fulfilled, happy and full of hope and faith. What it actually is we are not likely to know. It probably doesn't matter.

It does matter. It matters enough to you, for instance, to post about it consistently. It matters to others enough that they'll blow people up over it, they'll shoot schoolchildren because of it, they'll perpetrate genocide on other people who feel just as strongly but ever so slightly differently about it, they'll attempt to restrict the lives of others over it. It has real world consequences because the source of those experiences doesn't intrinsically affect how those people that have the experiences decide to express themselves in response to them.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #161 on: November 18, 2021, 01:36:30 PM »
Not sure if this has been posted on this MB before https://www.ted.com/talks/jonathan_haidt_the_moral_roots_of_liberals_and_conservatives#t-282763

This TED Talk by Jonathan Haidt on a related topic of where morality comes from puts forward the idea on nature vs nurture / innateness by Gary Marcus (Associate Professor at the Department of Psychology at New York University and Director of the NYU Infant Language Centre) that each person's mind already has mechanisms built into the brain at birth, and that these mechanisms are a result of gene coding.  Built in does not mean it is not malleable but means it is organised in advance of experience.

So he puts forward the claim that developmental psychology has shown that newborn babies come into the world with their brains already programmed for them to learn certain things and harder to learn others. This is referred to as the first draft of the moral mind. As we grow and experience our environment the nurture side develops to shape our views and our sensory reactions, which goes towards forming our moral values in different situations based on reasoning but also our individual sense of disgust or empathy or anxiety in relation to key issues.

Based on the research across multiple cultures and even across some species, Haidt believes there are 5 key issues that we are all neurologically / biologically programmed to focus on and that shapes our moral mind - our morality, thoughts and behaviour. The 5 issues he came up with are:

1. Harm / care -  to bond and care for others and oppose harm
2.  Fairness, reciprocity e.g. Golden Rule (although Haidt says there is ambiguous evidence for reciprocity in other animals)
3. Formation of groups and co-operation - tribal psychology
4. Authority, respect - but for humans deference is less based on power and brutality and more based on voluntary deference, love
5. Purity, sanctity - not necessarily sexual purity but could be related to purity around the food you put in your body

Obviously the biology and neurology needs much more thorough investigation before coming to any conclusions, and those conclusions will be subject to revision based on new information.
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jeremyp

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #162 on: November 18, 2021, 01:44:38 PM »

Well...ok.

This thread is about science being materialistic, in the sense that it knows and investigates only those phenomena that can be directly or indirectly known to the senses.
Aha. A definition of what you mean by materialism and a fairly reasonable one at that.

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The point is that there are other aspects of reality that may not be known to the senses but can be felt and experienced.

The senses are the only equipment we have that make it possible to feel or experience things in the wider world. Anything that you experience that does not come to you via your senses is entirely within your own imagination. In other words, when you describe an experience that did not come to you via your senses, there's no reason for anybody else to assume it has any objective reality outside of your head.
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jeremyp

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #163 on: November 18, 2021, 01:48:46 PM »
Really?!?

If scientific instrumentation is detection radio-frequency emissions from distant pulsars then in what way is that directly or indirectly known to the senses - our senses are unable to detect at those frequencies.
Typically the scientific instrument will paint a picture in terms that our senses can detect. For example, it might produce a graph of the radio emissions from the pulsar that we can see with our eyes. I'm pretty sure that that is what Sriram means by "indirectly".

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #164 on: November 18, 2021, 02:47:40 PM »
Typically the scientific instrument will paint a picture in terms that our senses can detect. For example, it might produce a graph of the radio emissions from the pulsar that we can see with our eyes. I'm pretty sure that that is what Sriram means by "indirectly".
It may just produce numerical data, but I guess that is something that our senses and brain processes.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #165 on: November 18, 2021, 02:51:51 PM »
Based on the research across multiple cultures and even across some species, Haidt believes there are 5 key issues that we are all neurologically / biologically programmed to focus on and that shapes our moral mind - our morality, thoughts and behaviour. The 5 issues he came up with are:

1. Harm / care -  to bond and care for others and oppose harm
2.  Fairness, reciprocity e.g. Golden Rule (although Haidt says there is ambiguous evidence for reciprocity in other animals)
3. Formation of groups and co-operation - tribal psychology
4. Authority, respect - but for humans deference is less based on power and brutality and more based on voluntary deference, love
5. Purity, sanctity - not necessarily sexual purity but could be related to purity around the food you put in your body

Obviously the biology and neurology needs much more thorough investigation before coming to any conclusions, and those conclusions will be subject to revision based on new information.
This seems to make a lot of sense to me and may help explain the universality of fundamental moral principles across many philosophies. However I guess where things become divergent is how individual tribes (as I guess most philosophies and religions have arisen within one culture/tribe) is how these elements are codified and ritualised. And I suspect the codification and ritualisation of the universal moral elements is important in transmission generation to generation and therefore is also evolutionarily important.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #166 on: November 18, 2021, 02:58:01 PM »
1. Harm / care -  to bond and care for others and oppose harm
2.  Fairness, reciprocity e.g. Golden Rule (although Haidt says there is ambiguous evidence for reciprocity in other animals)
3. Formation of groups and co-operation - tribal psychology
4. Authority, respect - but for humans deference is less based on power and brutality and more based on voluntary deference, love
5. Purity, sanctity - not necessarily sexual purity but could be related to purity around the food you put in your body
I suspect these are attributes we'd likely see in other species that require societal cooperation for survival.

In a kind of 'thought experiment' way I've sometimes wondered what moral philosophies might arise were a species that is essentially solitary (except for reproduction, e.g. a snow leopard) to attain the levels of higher consciousness/thought as humans. Now you may argue that they wouldn't as there would be no evolutionary advantage in higher consciousness of that nature, as it is linked to communal and societal living. You might also argue that a solitary animal would simply not see the need for a moral code - but were we to push on this I suspect the super intelligent snow leopard wouldn't see most of these attributes as important at all, certainly not 2-4 and 1 would probably be linked to female care for offspring only.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 06:14:21 PM by ProfessorDavey »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #167 on: November 18, 2021, 05:12:07 PM »
This seems to make a lot of sense to me and may help explain the universality of fundamental moral principles across many philosophies. However I guess where things become divergent is how individual tribes (as I guess most philosophies and religions have arisen within one culture/tribe) is how these elements are codified and ritualised. And I suspect the codification and ritualisation of the universal moral elements is important in transmission generation to generation and therefore is also evolutionarily important.
Yes. Haidt was talking about this in relation to conservatives and liberals and how people within a culture or tribe can be violently divided on issues, partly because they cannot see that opposing approaches can achieve a much needed balance between conservatism and liberalism. His research shows that within tribes some people can take a liberal approach over an issue while others take a conservative approach.

The difference seems to be that both liberals and conservatives score similarly on 

1. Harm / care -  to bond and care for others and oppose harm
2. Fairness, reciprocity e.g. Golden Rule (although Haidt says there is ambiguous evidence for reciprocity in other animals)

Though liberals score these 2 issues higher than conservatives.

But there is a marked difference between conservatives and liberals on their affinity for:
 
3. Formation of groups and co-operation - tribal psychology - in-group loyalty
4. Authority, respect - but for humans deference is less based on power and brutality and more based on voluntary deference, love
5. Purity, sanctity - not necessarily sexual purity but could be related to purity around the food you put in your body

This is not a left-right issue as the left can demand in-group loyalty. The left can also be very conservative rather than liberal about purity / sanctity of what goes into our bodies e.g. in relation to food, although they may be liberal in relation to sex.

Haidt thinks the order and sense of security in society (generated by authority, respect) is what is important to conservatives even if it causes harm to some people. Whereas liberals celebrate change (even if it causes chaos) and new ideas and approaches so celebrate individuality.

Haidt's claim seems to be that these 5 issues are part of the brain's programming at birth due to our genetics, similar to how our our other organs and features develop in the womb- a nature thing. Though nurture will go on to influence people's eventual position in the moral matrix.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #168 on: November 18, 2021, 05:53:45 PM »
I suspect these are attributes we'd likely see in other species that require societal cooperation for survival.
Yes - though Haidt says the evidence that other species exhibit reciprocity is ambiguous, though they do co-operate and form groups. I have not looked at the evidence or studies. But human brains seem to  have developed towards valuing reciprocity and fairness. Of course all this needs much more investigation but it is very interesting.

Quote
In a kind of 'thought experiment' way I've sometimes wondered what moral philosophies might arise where a species that is essentially solitary (except for reproduction, e.g. a snow leopard) to attain the levels of higher consciousness/thought as humans. Now you may argue that they wouldn't as there would be no evolutionary advantage in higher consciousness of that nature, as it is linked to communal and societal living. You might also argue that a solitary animal would simply not see the need for a moral code - but were we to push on this I suspect the super intelligent snow leopard wouldn't see most of these attributes as important at all, certainly not 2-4 and 1 would probably be linked to female care for offspring only.
Yes that makes sense.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #169 on: November 18, 2021, 05:55:09 PM »
Secondly, 'experience' is not just about some feeling of thrill or joy or whatever.  There are lots of other things such as a prior knowledge of events, events happening almost miraculously, the feeling of presence of a superior being and so on. These cannot be researched but only experienced personally.
What does feeling the presence of a superior being feel like - can you or Vlad break it down? What sensations do you physically feel and what do you label those feelings?
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #170 on: November 18, 2021, 06:56:34 PM »
What does feeling the presence of a superior being feel like - can you or Vlad break it down? What sensations do you physically feel and what do you label those feelings?
I'd imagine it would be similar to experiences that aren't uncommon amongst lots of people but the point is that people interpret them differently. So to me the interesting question isn't necessary 'what do you feel' but how on earth can you know this is the being in the presence of a superior being, rather than merely an internal emotional response. Same point for Sriram's claim that the phenomenon people report in near death experiences and other high physiological stress conditions must be an experience of an after life.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #171 on: November 18, 2021, 06:58:43 PM »
These cannot be researched but only experienced personally.
Of course they can be researched and are being researched. Indeed in some cases we know enough about the associated neurological response that we can stimulate the perception of these experiences by using electrostimulation methods that trigger certain areas of the brain.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 07:08:28 PM by ProfessorDavey »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #172 on: November 18, 2021, 07:04:17 PM »
... such as a prior knowledge of events
These are typically confirmed in studies to be no such thing, either actual knowledge, suggestion from a non partial observer, or merely jumping to conclusions where any series of recollections can seem to fit some prior event. I can't remember whether it was Sriram who was fixated by some claims of prior lives, which any objective observed would see through in seconds. 'I wore a hat in my previous life' - no shit Sherlock - the claim being that in the previous life the person was an adult in the 1940s and 50s - pretty well everyone wore a hat. That kind of thing.

events happening almost miraculously ...
This is usually just uncommon occurrences coupled with an innate human predisposition to see patterns. So roll a dice 100 times and get 100 sixes and we will claim that is 'miraculous' but it is no more, nor less, likely than any other series of numbers from 100 dice throws. Yet for most of the others we see no pattern so do not discern a pattern that must be 'miraculous'.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 07:08:11 PM by ProfessorDavey »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #173 on: November 18, 2021, 10:18:55 PM »
I'd imagine it would be similar to experiences that aren't uncommon amongst lots of people but the point is that people interpret them differently. So to me the interesting question isn't necessary 'what do you feel' but how on earth can you know this is the being in the presence of a superior being, rather than merely an internal emotional response. Same point for Sriram's claim that the phenomenon people report in near death experiences and other high physiological stress conditions must be an experience of an after life.
I'm curious about what feelings Vlad and Sriram associate with being in the presence of a superior being. I can't say I've ever felt anything that would make me believe I was in the presence of a superior being.

I don't think they are claiming to know, rather that they believe they are in the presence of a superior being - but I could be wrong so will wait for them to clarify. 
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Sriram

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #174 on: November 19, 2021, 05:24:46 AM »
What does feeling the presence of a superior being feel like - can you or Vlad break it down? What sensations do you physically feel and what do you label those feelings?


Well...its just that. A feeling of being in the presence of a very powerful and loving being. It cannot be explained further without too many personal details. You will know it when you have it.

As far as I am concerned, the presence makes all anxiety disappear instantly and I feel flooded with love and joy. A feeling of being completely fulfilled.

I do claim to actually know!

Now, whether the presence is God Himself or a celestial being or ones own Higher Self is a different matter......  :)