Materialism

[ProfessorDavey]

I do claim to actually know!

How do you know Sriram - how can you be so certain that what you experience is actually the presence of a very powerful and loving being. How can you sure that you aren't just perceiving that something is there which actually isn't.

[ProfessorDavey]

As far as I am concerned, the presence makes all anxiety disappear instantly and I feel flooded with love and joy. A feeling of being completely fulfilled.

Sounds like an almost text book description of the effects of anandamide which is a neurotransmitter. Sriram you will be interested that its name is derived from sanskrit.

So how can you be sure that what you are experiencing isn't simply due to release of anandamide in your brain, rather than the presence of a deity.

[Sriram]

It all depends on our fundamental impression of life in general. I am not going to argue on this because it is my personal experience and no way I can take you along....

Thanks...

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

makes all anxiety disappear instantly and I feel flooded with love and joy. A feeling of being completely fulfilled.

I have felt that. When I did a tandem sky-dive for charity when I was an atheist - I was feeling really anxious when I was on the plane and then we jumped and then after the initial drop, which induced a lot more anxiety, the feeling of dropping stopped even though I was still falling and I felt like I was flying and it was exhilarating and joyful and fulfilling and then the instructor released the parachute - and it was pretty boring after that. I have never forgotten that feeling of joy - I have been a passenger on motorbikes and been galloping on a horse - all pretty exhilarating but not as much as that free-fall. Not sure I have felt anything like it since.

In relation to religion - I remember feeling in lots of emotional pain once, and I prayed on the prayer mat articulating my despair in my head and felt the pain immediately being extinguished / leave me and I felt calm and at peace. The best way I can describe it is it was like that scene in the film Towering inferno where explosives burst the water tanks at the top of the tower and all the water goes flooding through and puts out the fire in its path as it goes. Sounds crazy but that's what it felt like.

I do claim to actually know!

Now, whether the presence is God Himself or a celestial being or ones own Higher Self is a different matter...... 

Ok - maybe you are using the word "know" in a different way from how I would use it. I would not say I know something unless I can prove it to someone else, except in the colloquial sense of I "know" my mother would never cheat on my father. Which essentially means I have absolute faith in my mother not cheating on my father.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes I was wondering about that too. I asked Vlad what he meant by "exploring" ideas. As in how do we know we are exploring something unless we can sense that we are exploring it and detect an experience corresponding to that exploration. I was asking Vlad how he would instruct someone to explore - e.g. what steps would they follow. And if they followed those steps and did not feel what he felt when he followed those steps, what would that signify to him. He has not answered yet.

I would encourage anybody to investigate their feelings about God, why for instance they feel that God is the very devil, if that is their case. Do they feel in the least repelled, to examine how they might feel if they found God were true. I am not asking them to examine my feelings but there own, do they feel challenged or resisted or frustrated by God?, do they feel that God might ask them, like the rich person who was asked to sell his belongings, to do something they wouldn't want to do. Why the interest in God?Is there more to it than a handful of peers in the house of Lords?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Well...its just that. A feeling of being in the presence of a very powerful and loving being. It cannot be explained further without too many personal details. You will know it when you have it.

As far as I am concerned, the presence makes all anxiety disappear instantly and I feel flooded with love and joy. A feeling of being completely fulfilled.

I do claim to actually know!

Now, whether the presence is God Himself or a celestial being or ones own Higher Self is a different matter...... 

So you've put the bridgehead of "a feeling of being in the presence of" on one side of the river, and the assertion of there actually being a presence on the other. Where's the bridge though to take you from the feeling to the fact?

Without that bridge, you don't "know" that at all.   

[Walt Zingmatilder]

I'm curious about what feelings Vlad and Sriram associate with being in the presence of a superior being. I can't say I've ever felt anything that would make me believe I was in the presence of a superior being.

I don't think they are claiming to know, rather that they believe they are in the presence of a superior being - but I could be wrong so will wait for them to clarify.

I have tried to relate what it felt like being confronted by God's holiness and my own in comparison and in relation to it, it was disturbing and numbing and the soul matter for me to attend to. When I committed my all to him, my feelings were joy to tears. The best description of this feeling I found was in Isaiah, where the writer talks of feeling 'undone' in God's presence
I think as Sriram has said there are a range of feelings associated with the presence, for me closeness to God, the feeling of an extensive and enfolding love, I have feelings of peace and total and muscular relaxation, in my early days with God there were times when he felt far away and I had feelings of yearning for closeness to him and I get feelings of forgiveness and being accepted as I am. For christian friends, their experiences are quite different. One described being in Church and having a mental picture of a shaft of light into which he stepped and from that moment he believed and trusted with no particularly strong emotional feelings.

Today I'm content for God to stir and affect me as He sees fit.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

I would encourage anybody to investigate their feelings about God, why for instance they feel that God is the very devil, if that is their case. Do they feel in the least repelled, to examine how they might feel if they found God were true. I am not asking them to examine my feelings but there own, do they feel challenged or resisted or frustrated by God?, do they feel that God might ask them, like the rich person who was asked to sell his belongings, to do something they wouldn't want to do. Why the interest in God?Is there more to it than a handful of peers in the house of Lords?

I would encourage anybody to investigate their feelings about leprechauns...etc

Yet again you've reified your premise into fact and gone from there. Some of us no more have "feelings about god" than you have feelings about leprechauns. What we do have though is the reason-based conclusion that the arguments you've attempted so far to justing the claim "god" are crap.

You might in other words want to trouble yourself with putting in some foundations before asking how people feel about the chimney pots.       

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I would encourage anybody to investigate their feelings about God, why for instance they feel that God is the very devil, if that is their case. Do they feel in the least repelled, to examine how they might feel if they found God were true. I am not asking them to examine my feelings but there own, do they feel challenged or resisted or frustrated by God?, do they feel that God might ask them, like the rich person who was asked to sell his belongings, to do something they wouldn't want to do. Why the interest in God?Is there more to it than a handful of peers in the house of Lords?

What if people don't feel any of those things? What if people feel nothing and have no interest in gods because the concept makes no sense? What if they are only interested in why other people have so much interest in something those people can't prove exists?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

I have tried to relate what it felt like being confronted by God's holiness and my own in comparison and in relation to it, it was disturbing and numbing and the soul matter for me to attend to. When I committed my all to him, my feelings were joy to tears. The best description of this feeling I found was in Isaiah, where the writer talks of feeling 'undone' in God's presence
I think as Sriram has said there are a range of feelings associated with the presence, for me closeness to God, the feeling of an extensive and enfolding love, I have feelings of peace and total and muscular relaxation, in my early days with God there were times when he felt far away and I had feelings of yearning for closeness to him and I get feelings of forgiveness and being accepted as I am. For christian friends, their experiences are quite different. One described being in Church and having a mental picture of a shaft of light into which he stepped and from that moment he believed and trusted with no particularly strong emotional feelings.

Today I'm content for God to stir and affect me as He sees fit.

And you eliminated the possibility that what you experienced were just physiological phenomena how exactly? 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I have tried to relate what it felt like being confronted by God's holiness and my own in comparison and in relation to it, it was disturbing and numbing and the soul matter for me to attend to. When I committed my all to him, my feelings were joy to tears. The best description of this feeling I found was in Isaiah, where the writer talks of feeling 'undone' in God's presence
I think as Sriram has said there are a range of feelings associated with the presence, for me closeness to God, the feeling of an extensive and enfolding love, I have feelings of peace and total and muscular relaxation, in my early days with God there were times when he felt far away and I had feelings of yearning for closeness to him and I get feelings of forgiveness and being accepted as I am. For christian friends, their experiences are quite different. One described being in Church and having a mental picture of a shaft of light into which he stepped and from that moment he believed and trusted with no particularly strong emotional feelings.

Today I'm content for God to stir and affect me as He sees fit.

Ok thanks for the details.

Feelings of peace I can relate to or at least feelings of being less burdened during/ after prayer. Belief in the concept of a god, something greater than myself, is beneficial for me as when I pray it's an easy way for me to shift to a different perspective of not feeling that problems are always in my control or that I need to foresee all potential consequences and try to manage them. 

I can't say I have ever experienced feeling 'undone'. But we are operating within the limitations of language and what you associate with the word 'undone' may be different from what I associate with it.

Feeling accepted is also not something I can relate to - but I can't say I have a yearning to feel accepted so maybe that's why it is not something I associate with a feeling of peace.

Trust I think I can relate to in that I have felt that. 

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

I would encourage anybody to investigate their feelings about leprechauns...etc
   

Yes, in your case I would suggest medical involvement in that. I have investigated my feelings and I can say that after years of you promoting them I've become rather fond of the little chaps.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Yes, in your case I would suggest medical involvement in that. I have investigated my feelings and I can say that after years of you promoting them I've become rather fond of the little chaps.

And your response to the reification fallacy you just attempted would be what exactly? 

Oh, and about you withdrawing and apologising for your most recent lie about a claim I supposedly made about materialism - how's that coming along?   

[Sriram]

I have felt that. When I did a tandem sky-dive for charity when I was an atheist - I was feeling really anxious when I was on the plane and then we jumped and then after the initial drop, which induced a lot more anxiety, the feeling of dropping stopped even though I was still falling and I felt like I was flying and it was exhilarating and joyful and fulfilling and then the instructor released the parachute - and it was pretty boring after that. I have never forgotten that feeling of joy - I have been a passenger on motorbikes and been galloping on a horse - all pretty exhilarating but not as much as that free-fall. Not sure I have felt anything like it since.

In relation to religion - I remember feeling in lots of emotional pain once, and I prayed on the prayer mat articulating my despair in my head and felt the pain immediately being extinguished / leave me and I felt calm and at peace. The best way I can describe it is it was like that scene in the film Towering inferno where explosives burst the water tanks at the top of the tower and all the water goes flooding through and puts out the fire in its path as it goes. Sounds crazy but that's what it felt like.
Ok - maybe you are using the word "know" in a different way from how I would use it. I would not say I know something unless I can prove it to someone else, except in the colloquial sense of I "know" my mother would never cheat on my father. Which essentially means I have absolute faith in my mother not cheating on my father.

Yes...there are lots of things inside us than outside. Investigating and understanding these things is 'spirituality' and requires introspection. Yoga and other methods teach us precisely about the inner layers of the mind and consciousness.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

And you eliminated the possibility that what you experienced were just physiological phenomena how exactly?

Just too much association of these with this God thing, Hillside, and that has been reinforced by the accounts of the religious contributors on this forum.

Why shouldn't one response to the necessary entity be physiological?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

And your response to the reification fallacy you just attempted would be what exactly? 

Oh, and about you withdrawing and apologising for your most recent lie about a claim I supposedly made about materialism - how's that coming along?

you what?

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

Just too much association of these with this God thing, Hillside, and that has been reinforced by the accounts of the religious contributors on this forum.

Why shouldn't one response to the necessary entity be physiological?

Do you want to unscramble that into a comprehensible thought?

Oh and you just selectively edited out of my post, yet again: about you withdrawing and apologising for your most recent lie about a claim I supposedly made about materialism - how's that coming along?   

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes...there are lots of things inside us than outside. Investigating and understanding these things is 'spirituality' and requires introspection. Yoga and other methods teach us precisely about the inner layers of the mind and consciousness.

But what you and VG are describing is textbook description of the effects of anandamide.

Surely the place to start in terms of understanding these experiences isn't 'spirituality' or yoga etc, which may just be triggers for release of anandamide, as may be skydiving. Why not look into the physiology and then try to understand how individuals are able to control that physiology via certain activities. And I'd imagine that sometimes the release may be in effect beyond our control (I suspect VG's was subconscious), but we can almost certainly learn to act in a manner, or choose to repeat activities and practices that result in that release. And I'm sure yoga may be one of those things, communal singing is known to be another.

[bluehillside Retd.]

Vlad,

you what?

You reified your belief “god” into a fact that people would apparently explore.

You also flat out lied by claiming I’d said something about materialism being beyond criticism that I hadn’t said at all. I called you out on the lie, and you’ve ignored it. If you can’t justify the claim, you should withdraw and apologise for it.   

[Stranger]

Why shouldn't one response to the necessary entity...

What necessary entity? You haven't got anywhere near to showing that such a thing exists. Your 'arguments' were so full of holes, they were more hole than argument, and you just ignored or deflected all the difficult questions.

You even spent most of one thread running away from making any reference to any version of an argument, as if you could just pretend it into existence.

How about growing an intellectual backbone and actually put up an argument and respond directly to the questions and counterarguments?

[Sriram]

But what you and VG are describing is textbook description of the effects of anandamide.

Surely the place to start in terms of understanding these experiences isn't 'spirituality' or yoga etc, which may just be triggers for release of anandamide, as may be skydiving. Why not look into the physiology and then try to understand how individuals are able to control that physiology via certain activities. And I'd imagine that sometimes the release may be in effect beyond our control (I suspect VG's was subconscious), but we can almost certainly learn to act in a manner, or choose to repeat activities and practices that result in that release. And I'm sure yoga may be one of those things, communal singing is known to be another.

Yes...you are actually right (finally).  Yoga and other practices are designed to induce such a sense of fulfillment.

But the problem is...that is not enough. We need to explain Life, Mind, Consciousness, Death, purpose and so on. That is where a broader philosophical framework becomes necessary.

Chance, random variations, NS and emergence ...are just not good enough.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Vlad,

You reified your belief “god” into a fact that people would apparently explore.

I've just suggested that people explore their own feelings about God. Obviously only someone who is so fanatical about philosophical empiricism that they would bet their soul on that would see that as the equivalent of selling one's kidneys.

I wouldn't explore africa or the favelas of colombia Hillside but I am prepared to admit that that is out of fear. If you wont explore your feelings to God perhaps you should explore why not.

I stick to my opinion that you are not prepared to brook criticism of philosophical empiricism. If I called that materialism then that was indeed a mistake.
 

[bluehillside Retd.]

Sriram,

Yes...you are actually right (finally).  Yoga and other practices are designed to induce such a sense of fulfillment.

But the problem is...that is not enough. We need to explain Life, Mind, Consciousness, Death, purpose and so on. That is where a broader philosophical framework becomes necessary.

Chance, random variations, NS and emergence ...are just not good enough.

Why not?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

What necessary entity? You haven't got anywhere near to showing that such a thing exists. Your 'arguments' were so full of holes, they were more hole than argument, and you just ignored or deflected all the difficult questions.

You even spent most of one thread running away from making any reference to any version of an argument, as if you could just pretend it into existence.

How about growing an intellectual backbone and actually put up an argument and respond directly to the questions and counterarguments?

I have done contingency is observed. No contingency without necessity. Is the observable universe contingent yes, Does contingency alone make any sense, no.
Does infinite regress answer any questions no, does it answer the question why something and not nothing, no. The answer to that, the sufficient reason, is therefore the final necessary entity.

Questions and counterarguments answered.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes...you are actually right (finally).  Yoga and other practices are designed to induce such a sense of fulfillment.

Almost certainly they are designed to induce an increase in anandamide serum levels which cross the blood/brain barrier to induce the effects you describe. We know this now, but of course when people were developing yoga and similar practices they didn't now this albeit they felt the effects induced to be important/significant etc etc, but the reality is that the effects are physiological, and pretty well understood physiology now.

But the problem is...that is not enough. We need to explain Life, Mind, Consciousness, Death, purpose and so on. That is where a broader philosophical framework becomes necessary.

These are entirely different questions - we can ruminate all we like on life, death, purpose etc etc, but the effects you've described are almost certainly a simple chemical process in the brain.

Chance, random variations, NS and emergence ...are just not good enough.

Why aren't they enough - if they are able to adequately explain (based on evidence) why you feel as you do when you think god is around, or when I sing in my choir, or when VG goes skydiving, or when someone practices yoga, why do you need to ascribe some greater purpose. Realistically the only 'greater purpose' you need to include is evolutionary benefits as it is pretty easy to see why the release of anandamide, triggered by certain experiences may be beneficial.