Author Topic: Materialism  (Read 18262 times)

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #225 on: November 19, 2021, 01:55:05 PM »
Of course I do - in fact music tends to move me in ways that very little else can. And not just in a bliss/ecstatic sense either. Actually as an adult I think music has moved me to cry more than anything else.

Why would you think otherwise Vlad - in your mind are atheists strange mechanistic automatons who are incapable of feelings?
If I thought that I wouldn't be asking people to explore them. I tend to think atheists would like us to believe that they, and the rest of us, are strange mechanistic automatons.

Have you found music to be transcendant?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #226 on: November 19, 2021, 01:55:22 PM »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #227 on: November 19, 2021, 01:56:26 PM »
where, what?
You said you suspected God wasn't there. Where is there?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #228 on: November 19, 2021, 01:58:58 PM »
You said you suspected God wasn't there. Where is there?
In your presence

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #229 on: November 19, 2021, 02:01:41 PM »

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #230 on: November 19, 2021, 02:22:18 PM »
May I invite contributors to this thread to explore any feelings elicited when seeing or reading the following words.

Religion
Atheism
Science
God
Stephen Pinker

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #231 on: November 19, 2021, 02:43:56 PM »
And why is that?
Because VG and I were discussing the experience that you, her and Sriram describe as linking to being in the presence of god/higher entity and whether the three of you consider that you know you are in the presence of god, rather than you believe or have faith (or VG considers this to be a colloquial use of know) that you are in the presence of god.

VG will of course speak for herself but my reading of her post is that she believes she is in the presence of god rather than (noncolloqualliy) knows she is in the presence of god. My reading of your posts and Sriram is that you seem to be claiming certainty, in other words that you and Sriram claim to (noncolloqualliy) know you are in the presence of god/higher entity.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #232 on: November 19, 2021, 03:06:56 PM »
Because VG and I were discussing the experience that you, her and Sriram describe as linking to being in the presence of god/higher entity and whether the three of you consider that you know you are in the presence of god, rather than you believe or have faith (or VG considers this to be a colloquial use of know) that you are in the presence of god.

VG will of course speak for herself but my reading of her post is that she believes she is in the presence of god rather than (noncolloqualliy) knows she is in the presence of god. My reading of your posts and Sriram is that you seem to be claiming certainty, in other words that you and Sriram claim to (noncolloqualliy) know you are in the presence of god/higher entity.
And you suspect we aren't in the presence of God............ again how so?

From my own point of view if it looks like a duck, sounds like an etc. etc. Again I have said the linguistic framework which best fits the experience is that of Christianity and that has a specific vocabulary. The experience was so profound it's reality overshadows the affectiveness of intellectually assented fact.

I think you are erring toward mistake or madness as the explanation of the phenomenon.

Secondly I think you think all religious experience is suddenly feeling great and happy, but a reading of my previous testimony should disavow you of that.

I think each swerve from God is a response to God.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 03:09:27 PM by Walt Zingmatilder »

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #233 on: November 19, 2021, 03:10:01 PM »
Because VG and I were discussing the experience that you, her and Sriram describe as linking to being in the presence of god/higher entity and whether the three of you consider that you know you are in the presence of god, rather than you believe or have faith (or VG considers this to be a colloquial use of know) that you are in the presence of god.

VG will of course speak for herself but my reading of her post is that she believes she is in the presence of god rather than (noncolloqualliy) knows she is in the presence of god. My reading of your posts and Sriram is that you seem to be claiming certainty, in other words that you and Sriram claim to (noncolloqualliy) know you are in the presence of god/higher entity.
I don't know or believe I was in the presence of God. I believe there is a God and I know I felt at peace when I was in emotional pain after I prayed following the traditional Islamic rituals and at the same time consciously in my mind acknowledging that I had nowhere else to turn (even though I had tried going for a walk to get fresh air and was at my parents' place I didn't want to talk to them as I didn't think it would help). I wasn't expecting it to work but it did - Towering Inferno style.

Other than that I can't say anything about being in the presence of something. I have no idea. But if I am in emotional pain again I intend on praying to try to relieve it.
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #234 on: November 19, 2021, 03:11:27 PM »
And you suspect we aren't in the presence of God............ again how so?
I suspect you aren't in the presence of god because as an atheist I do not believe that god exists and therefore consistency in opinion leads me to suspect that you aren't in the presence of god (who I don't think exists) even if you think you may be.

How is that so hard to understand - unless atheism is a purely 'true for me' claim then of course an atheist isn't going to think you can be in the presence of god because an atheist doesn't believe god exists.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #235 on: November 19, 2021, 03:17:35 PM »
I think you are erring toward mistake or madness as the explanation of the phenomenon.
Non-sense I am erring toward anandamide as the explanation of the phenomenon. And there is plenty of evidence to support this, including research that shows that religious practice amongst the faithful can result in increased levels of anandamide which produce exactly the effects to attribute to god.

I think you are mistaken to attribute these effects to being in the presence of god, for the obvious reason that I don't believe that god exists. I've provided a perfectly reasonable non-god-requiring explanation for these effects, based on actual evidence. You on the other hand attribute these effects to god when there isn't any evidence that god even exists, even less that he/she/it can produce these effects.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #236 on: November 19, 2021, 03:19:59 PM »
Secondly I think you think all religious experience is suddenly feeling great and happy, but a reading of my previous testimony should disavow you of that.
No I don't - I'm well aware that religiosity can also be associated with feelings of guilt, fear, anxiety etc. But we were talking about the bliss-like state that some people attribute to the presence of god, but which is textbook anandamide effect.

Sriram

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #237 on: November 19, 2021, 03:21:54 PM »
I don't know or believe I was in the presence of God. I believe there is a God and I know I felt at peace when I was in emotional pain after I prayed following the traditional Islamic rituals and at the same time consciously in my mind acknowledging that I had nowhere else to turn (even though I had tried going for a walk to get fresh air and was at my parents' place I didn't want to talk to them as I didn't think it would help). I wasn't expecting it to work but it did - Towering Inferno style.

Other than that I can't say anything about being in the presence of something. I have no idea. But if I am in emotional pain again I intend on praying to try to relieve it.

Gabriella,

The towering inferno event is right. I describe it as a waterfall. We don't have to describe it as God. It is something we don't understand...never mind.  It exists and it comes to our aid when we ask for it.

Let me tell you also that it is not just about a 'good feeling'. Not just a 'all is well' feeling. Not just about anxiety getting relieved. Even real events and situations will change suitably. Not just solace but real solutions will also appear.

That is my experience for 50 years. 

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #238 on: November 19, 2021, 03:27:55 PM »
Non-sense I am erring toward anandamide as the explanation of the phenomenon. And there is plenty of evidence to support this, including research that shows that religious practice amongst the faithful can result in increased levels of anandamide which produce exactly the effects to attribute to god.

I think you are mistaken to attribute these effects to being in the presence of god, for the obvious reason that I don't believe that god exists. I've provided a perfectly reasonable non-god-requiring explanation for these effects, based on actual evidence. You on the other hand attribute these effects to god when there isn't any evidence that god even exists, even less that he/she/it can produce these effects.
The release of anandamide as evidence that God does not exist. Interesting but hardly scientific. You have succeeded in portraying the religious as a bunch of Junkeys after their fix.

Still back to music. Do you find it transcendent?

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #239 on: November 19, 2021, 03:50:58 PM »
The release of anandamide as evidence that God does not exist. Interesting but hardly scientific.
Oh dear, back to your inability to understand science. The release of anandamide produces the effects ascribed to the presence of god in a manner that does not require god to exist. It provide a god-free explanation. And in the absence of any evidence that god does exist data that satisfactorily explain phenomena ascribed to god (but without god) are preferred from a scientific perspective. So it isn't evidence that god does not exist but it undermines claims of blissful religious experience as evidence that god does exist. 

You have succeeded in portraying the religious as a bunch of Junkeys after their fix.
Actually yes, and there are lots of articles that do exactly the same. But don't forget that runners, singers, meditators etc etc are also tarred with the same 'natural high' brush. And don't forget that many religions have used imbibing mind-altering drugs within their religious practices, presumable also to induce similar states.

Still back to music. Do you find it transcendent?
I'm not sure I would use the term transcendent as that often has religious overtones and is often used to imply stepping outside of the physical limits. So I don't think music does that - what it does do for me is take me to a different physical state, but not necessarily one that cannot be produced by other means.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #240 on: November 19, 2021, 04:21:03 PM »
The release of anandamide as evidence that God does not exist. Interesting but hardly scientific. You have succeeded in portraying the religious as a bunch of Junkeys after their fix.
What's wrong with being a junkie after their fix? Many people are - not just the religious.

Are you having delusions of grandeur?  ;)
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

Sriram

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #241 on: November 19, 2021, 04:35:42 PM »



If we shower love on a baby....oxytocin (or whatever other chemical) gets released........that does not mean that the baby does not exist or that you don't actually love the baby. 

The chemical is just a physical component and a product of the situation. It does not create the situation. The situation generates the chemical.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #242 on: November 19, 2021, 04:36:32 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Reification? Isn't that turning an abstract thing into a concrete thing.

Close – it’s treating an “abstract thing” such as a belief about something as if the object of the belief had been shown to be real. That’s why you can no more ask people about their feelings about “god” than I can ask you about your feeling about leprechauns. (See also the idiocy of “goddodging”.)   

Quote
To accept that charge then I would have to agree that God is an abstract thing and hence sign up to YOUR belief. I see what you tried to do there.

Wrong again – it’s the opposite of that. Leaving aside for now that – so far at least – you’ve never provided the slightest hint of a reason to think that belief isn’t all you have, by asking other people to consider their feelings about “god” you’re trying to get them to sign up to your belief too a priori.
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Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #243 on: November 19, 2021, 04:40:44 PM »
Oh dear, back to your inability to understand science. The release of anandamide produces the effects ascribed to the presence of god in a manner that does not require god to exist. It provide a god-free explanation.
But science always gives god free explanations doesn't it? God isn't in at the start.
Quote
And in the absence of any evidence that god does exist data that satisfactorily explain phenomena ascribed to god (but without god) are preferred from a scientific perspective.
Yes so it factors out God but puts the release of anandamide down to er, the release of Anandamine. So it isn't evidence that god does not exist but it undermines claims of blissful religious experience as evidence that god does exist.[/quote]I don't think so since we have to account for the reason this is occuring in religious contexts
Quote
 
Actually yes, and there are lots of articles that do exactly the same. But don't forget that runners, singers, meditators etc etc are also tarred with the same 'natural high' brush. And don't forget that many religions have used imbibing mind-altering drugs within their religious practices, presumable also to induce similar states.
I'm not sure I would use the term transcendent as that often has religious overtones
and that will never do
Quote
and is often used to imply stepping outside of the physical limits. So I don't think music does that - what it does do for me is take me to a different physical state, but not necessarily one that cannot be produced by other means.
But I think you are just analysing an experience in physicalist terms after the event.
 I think we all assume that if we all ran, meditated or sang we'd get a fix of anandamine, however doing religious things does not so guarantee a release.

So are you saying that anandenine creates the illusion of God or what? Since an encounter with God need not elicit any anandenine. Eg. Goddodging or anger at the mention of God.

I am interested in whether you think anandanine might be released in the presence of an eminent atheist, I have heard of an actress who nearly fainted when meeting Dawkins when he appeared in the Doctor who studio or perhaps having Dr Krauss performing the laying of hands on one?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 04:44:24 PM by Walt Zingmatilder »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #244 on: November 19, 2021, 04:45:39 PM »
Yes so it factors out God but puts the release of anandamide down to er, the release of Anandamine.
Nope - it explains phenomena of blissfulness that some people associate with the presence of god as being caused by the release of anandamide. Do keep up Vlad.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #245 on: November 19, 2021, 04:46:19 PM »
Vlad,

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I have said other frameworks do not fit my experience. It looks like you are having trouble accepting that. What is going on is that you have a weltbild you have committed to and that is it. Anything and everything must be fitted into that. I have no desire to jump into that.

Evasion isn’t helping you here. Each person from each religious tradition finds that his most proximate religious cultural narrative “fits their experience”. If the Romans “sensed a presence” it was Poseidon; if the Norse did it was Thor; for you, the most proximate religious narrative just happens to be the Christian god. So what?   

Quote
Religious people have periods of doubt, struggle, dark nights and what have you. I don't suppose you let yourself or your weltbild be troubled by anything like that. That would explain why people here bask in your faith. I have not tried to odds anyone else's religious experience on here.

Irrelevant, untrue and a straw man to boot.

Quote
And as for retrofitting to fit culture, you are as they say you are the very model of the modern major atheist.

Then how else do you explain every society across time and geography finding that its gods “best fit their experience” too, just as you do?

Oh, and you seem to have forgotten to withdraw an apologise for your assertion that I claimed something about materialism I didn’t claim at all. Why is that? 
"Don't make me come down there."

God

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #246 on: November 19, 2021, 04:48:48 PM »
I don't think so since we have to account for the reason this is occuring in religious contexts
But it doesn't just occur in religious contexts does it - the same phenomena and the same explanation of anandamide occur in context that have nothing to do with religion - e.g. singing, running and a range of other activities. So the phenomena and its explanation are causally decoupled from religion/god. That you can also trigger these effects via religious practice is neither relevant nor surprising.

Walt Zingmatilder

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #247 on: November 19, 2021, 04:50:21 PM »
Vlad,

Close – it’s treating an “abstract thing” such as a belief about something as if the object of the belief had been shown to be real. That’s why you can no more ask people about their feelings about “god” than I can ask you about your feeling about leprechauns. (See also the idiocy of “goddodging”.)
That's just intellectual totalitarian wankfantasy on your part.     
Quote
Wrong again – it’s the opposite of that. Leaving aside for now that – so far at least – you’ve never provided the slightest hint of a reason to think that belief isn’t all you have, by asking other people to consider their feelings about “god” you’re trying to get them to sign up to your belief too a priori.
People have hidden fears and suppress things all the time even from themselves this is why we have psychiatrists and psychologists. Secondly I think you fear my presence on this board. Why is this? what is the cause of your Vlobsession?(Vlad Obsession).

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #248 on: November 19, 2021, 04:51:51 PM »
So are you saying that anandenine creates the illusion of God or what?
Yes that's about the long and short of it, when the experience is associated with those bliss-type feelings, which are textbook anandenine. Believers presumably perceive these effects as god.

bluehillside Retd.

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Re: Materialism
« Reply #249 on: November 19, 2021, 04:53:54 PM »
Vlad,

Quote
Do you mean no good reason for you?

No - by "no good reason" I mean no reason that isn't logically false. Given your total reliance of logically false arguments to justify your assertion "god" (or your reliance on no arguments at all) you should understand this by now. 

Quote
If that paper from Sean Carroll touted on this forum constitutes what you mean by ''Good'' reason then i'm afraid I find your claim in this matter a tad laughable.

SC seems to be your new unrequited bromance object around here these days. Unless you can cite the paper and tell us where you think he went wrong, this is just white noise.
"Don't make me come down there."

God