Climate Change and Divine Intervention

[Alan Burns]

Interesting extract from the "Voice for Justice" web site:

Yes, the world is at a tipping point.  But while we try and combat rising temperatures and extreme weather by our own puny efforts, we don’t stand a chance; nature will always be one step ahead.   To have any chance of winning this battle, therefore, we need the help of the One who called all of life into being, and who alone has control over nature. 
 
For too long humanity has treated God with contempt.   We can do whatever we want, we’ve said.  We can live as we want, have what we want … behave as we want.  We don’t need a kill-joy fairy in the sky and His outdated morality!   We’re all ‘god’ now.   So, in our hubris, we’ve rebranded good as evil, and evil as good. 
 
But to echo the words of St Paul, ‘God is not mocked … whatsover a man soweth, that shall he also reap’ (Galatians 6:7).


Lynda Rose - voice for justice UK

[Nearly Sane]

Interesting extract from the "Voice for Justice" web site:

Yes, the world is at a tipping point.  But while we try and combat rising temperatures and extreme weather by our own puny efforts, we don’t stand a chance; nature will always be one step ahead.   To have any chance of winning this battle, therefore, we need the help of the One who called all of life into being, and who alone has control over nature. 
 
For too long humanity has treated God with contempt.   We can do whatever we want, we’ve said.  We can live as we want, have what we want … behave as we want.  We don’t need a kill-joy fairy in the sky and His outdated morality!   We’re all ‘god’ now.   So, in our hubris, we’ve rebranded good as evil, and evil as good. 
 
But to echo the words of St Paul, ‘God is not mocked … whatsover a man soweth, that shall he also reap’ (Galatians 6:7).


Lynda Rose - voice for justice UK

an omniscient omnipotent god has chosen this. And for every child that dies because of it, your god bathes in their blood intentionally.

[torridon]

Interesting extract from the "Voice for Justice" web site:

Yes, the world is at a tipping point.  But while we try and combat rising temperatures and extreme weather by our own puny efforts, we don’t stand a chance; nature will always be one step ahead.   To have any chance of winning this battle, therefore, we need the help of the One who called all of life into being, and who alone has control over nature. 
 
For too long humanity has treated God with contempt.   We can do whatever we want, we’ve said.  We can live as we want, have what we want … behave as we want.  We don’t need a kill-joy fairy in the sky and His outdated morality!   We’re all ‘god’ now.   So, in our hubris, we’ve rebranded good as evil, and evil as good. 
 
But to echo the words of St Paul, ‘God is not mocked … whatsover a man soweth, that shall he also reap’ (Galatians 6:7).


Lynda Rose - voice for justice UK

Lynda Rose misunderstands the problem, it is not humans being puny in the face of natural change, it is humans that are the driving force of change in the climate.  And turning to the pages of the Bible to solve the climate crisis isn't going to help much.  It is science that has delivered an understanding of climate and science and technology will be needed to help undo the harm that current and previous generations have done. There is no guidance in the Bible on what is a reasonable carbon footprint.  It was the Bible in the first place that endorsed the idea of man having dominion over the natural world, teaching that we are something separate to nature, not part of it, and this is what it has led to.  I don't think it is a coincidence that christian fundamentalists feature highly in the ranks of climate skeptics, the American evangelicals in particular vociferously oppose taking action on climate change.

[Alan Burns]

Lynda Rose misunderstands the problem, it is not humans being puny in the face of natural change, it is humans that are the driving force of change in the climate.  And turning to the pages of the Bible to solve the climate crisis isn't going to help much.  It is science that has delivered an understanding of climate and science and technology will be needed to help undo the harm that current and previous generations have done. There is no guidance in the Bible on what is a reasonable carbon footprint.  It was the Bible in the first place that endorsed the idea of man having dominion over the natural world, teaching that we are something separate to nature, not part of it, and this is what it has led to.  I don't think it is a coincidence that christian fundamentalists feature highly in the ranks of climate skeptics, the American evangelicals in particular vociferously oppose taking action on climate change.

What Lynda is pointing out is that the root cause of the present crisis is the culmination of self centred acts of human will in an increasingly secular society which has turned away from God.  It is just one of the dreadful consequences of mankind taking control without God's guidance.  We need to turn back to God for help to lead us out of this crisis.

[Alan Burns]

This is the full article by Lynda Rose - well worth reading in full:

https://www.christiantoday.com/article/as.greenhouses.gases.continue.to.soar.what.might.god.be.saying/137652.htm

[Nearly Sane]

This is the full article by Lynda Rose - well worth reading in full:

https://www.christiantoday.com/article/as.greenhouses.gases.continue.to.soar.what.might.god.be.saying/137652.htm

Wow, She even admits that your god kills children. You worship a thug god.

'So what is God saying to the world in all of this?

I would suggest that humanity is being given a warning;

[Stranger]

What Lynda is pointing out is that the root cause of the present crisis is the culmination of self centred acts of human will in an increasingly secular society which has turned away from God.  It is just one of the dreadful consequences of mankind taking over without God's guidance.  We need to turn back to God for help to lead us out of this crisis.

What an utterly absurd claim. Where was "god's guidance" when the world started down the road towards making the problem and was far more religious than today? And let's not forget that Christians in the US voted for Trump in large numbers, and look what he did for climate change.

This kind of silly superstitious drivel isn't going to help anybody.

[Alan Burns]

Wow, She even admits that your god kills children. You worship a thug god.

I worship the God who brought life into existence.

[Nearly Sane]

I worship the God who brought life into existence.

And created child leukeamia because you worship a murderous thug who delights in pain and suffering.

[Alan Burns]

What an utterly absurd claim. Where was "god's guidance" when the world started down the road towards making the problem and was far more religious than today?

I presume you refer to the beginnings of the industrial revolution.
This pales into insignificance when compared to the exponential increase in carbon emissions over the last few decades which correlates with similar increases in over indulgent consumerism over the same period.  And also coincides with the increasing secular led trends infiltrating modern society.

[Aruntraveller]

I presume you refer to the beginnings of the industrial revolution.
This pales into insignificance when compared to the exponential increase in carbon emissions over the last few decades which correlates with similar increases in over indulgent consumerism over the same period.  And also coincides with the increasing secular led trends infiltrating modern society.

You are dodging the question. Where was God's guidance?

You see when ever I read this:

“Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

I don't actually read it as any kind of green manifesto. Quite the opposite in fact. "Fill the Earth". We did what your God asked and look where it has got us.

[ProfessorDavey]

I presume you refer to the beginnings of the industrial revolution.
This pales into insignificance when compared to the exponential increase in carbon emissions over the last few decades which correlates with similar increases in over indulgent consumerism over the same period.  And also coincides with the increasing secular led trends infiltrating modern society.

It is certainly true that the problem has been exacerbated over recent decades, but I'm not sure you can sustain an assertion of a causal link with secularisation.

What is certainly the case is that the major judo-christian religions have always been hugely human-centric and have, at best, paid lip service to other living things on the planet (which are largely seen as things for humans to exploit) and the broader environment. This contrast with certain other religions, often more ancient ones, that have typically seen humans and the broader environment within a symbiotic relationship.

A further point is about population - one of the major drivers of climate change is human population growth (along with increases in per capita consumption). Many religions, including major christian denomination have actively encouraged unsustainable population growth through promoting having large numbers of children and opposing the use of contraceptive and abortion.

[Outrider]

What Lynda is pointing out is that the root cause of the present crisis is the culmination of self centred acts of human will in an increasingly secular society which has turned away from God.  It is just one of the dreadful consequences of mankind taking control without God's guidance.  We need to turn back to God for help to lead us out of this crisis.

What both you and Lynda appear to forget is that whilst we are in an increasingly secular society, the climate crisis is linked to activities that commenced in the decidedly more religious Industrial Revolution era, and which continues to be most problematic in both relatively non-religious cultures (i.e. China, Scandinavia), moderately religious cultures (i.e. UK) and the decidedly religious (i.e. India, Brazil, USA). It's almost as though belief and religiosity were not directly related to pollution in any way at all.

The problem isn't that mankind has 'taken control' regardless of whether there's a God or not, it's that mankind has influence but doesn't have complete control (or even a complete understanding). Turning to God isn't going to help, you can't pray the carbon dioxide back into the trees, you can't sing a few hymns and expect deforestation to reverse itself; we, collectively, have to decide to make the sacrifices that, if managed correctly, might result in those outcomes.

O.

[ProfessorDavey]

This pales into insignificance when compared to the exponential increase in carbon emissions over the last few decades which correlates with similar increases in over indulgent consumerism over the same period.  And also coincides with the increasing secular led trends infiltrating modern society.

Actually your claims isn't borne out by the evidence - most of the growth in greenhouse gas emissions over the past few decades is due to population growth, not increases in per capita emission levels.

So in the 30 years since 1990 global population has increased by nearly 50%, but there has been just a 6% increase in greenhouse gas emission per person.

And for many of the most secular countries with their over indulgent consumerism greenhouse gas emission per person has actually gone down over that period, for example :

UK -42%
USA -17%
Germany -25%
Sweden -6%
France -42%
Italy -23%
Belgium -24%
Canada -7%
Denmark -42%
Netherlands -7%

Of course the biggest changes per capita are the emerging developing nations, and the double whammy is where there are major increases in both emissions per capita and population, compounding each other.

[Alan Burns]

What both you and Lynda appear to forget is that whilst we are in an increasingly secular society, the climate crisis is linked to activities that commenced in the decidedly more religious Industrial Revolution era, and which continues to be most problematic in both relatively non-religious cultures (i.e. China, Scandinavia), moderately religious cultures (i.e. UK) and the decidedly religious (i.e. India, Brazil, USA). It's almost as though belief and religiosity were not directly related to pollution in any way at all.

The problem isn't that mankind has 'taken control' regardless of whether there's a God or not, it's that mankind has influence but doesn't have complete control (or even a complete understanding). Turning to God isn't going to help, you can't pray the carbon dioxide back into the trees, you can't sing a few hymns and expect deforestation to reverse itself; we, collectively, have to decide to make the sacrifices that, if managed correctly, might result in those outcomes.

O.

You vastly underestimate the power of prayer.
It is increasingly evident that human endeavours alone will not save our planet from the current climate crisis.
We need a miracle, which God alone can give through the power of prayer.

[Nearly Sane]

You vastly underestimate the power of prayer.
It is increasingly evident that human endeavours alone will not save our planet from the current climate crisis.
We need a miracle, which God alone can give through the power of prayer.

So your god can choose to save the planet and lives but may not do so because of insufficient adoration. Your god is a capricious narcissist.

[Sriram]

Actually it is about the collective consciousness.

When large number of people pray or meditate together they go beyond the individual ego mind and enter the collective unconscious mind. When this mind is activated in a certain way, it can have profound results for all humanity.

[Stranger]

We need a miracle, which God alone can give through the power of prayer.

Actually it is about the collective consciousness.

When large number of people pray or meditate together they go beyond the individual ego mind and enter the collective unconscious mind. When this mind is activated in a certain way, it can have profound results for all humanity.

What we need to do is what the science is telling us. Primitive superstitions are not going to help, and suggesting they might is dangerous nonsense.

[Stranger]

Actually your claims isn't borne out by the evidence...

No, as we all know, global warming is actually due to the decrease in the number of pirates.   

[ProfessorDavey]

You vastly underestimate the power of prayer.

No we don't - prayer alone will achieve nothing. Indeed the only value for prayer is if is galvanises people into taking action and even then I'd prefer people to spend their time acting rather than praying (which is of course, not acting).

It is increasingly evident that human endeavours alone will not save our planet from the current climate crisis.

No, it is increasingly evident that the only way to save the planet is through human endeavours.

We need a miracle, which God alone can give through the power of prayer.

Do you realise just how terrifying that comment is, particularly if your view is reflected in many other religious people, which sadly it is. If people think thank that the way to solve climate change is to sit around praying and wait for a miracle while taking no action then we really are screwed. And sadly (I think a much stronger word is needed) this is the attitude amongst too many religious people - note not all religious people but there is a strong stand of laissez faire attitudes amongst many religious communities around the world when it comes to climate change.

[Sriram]

What we need to do is what the science is telling us. Primitive superstitions are not going to help, and suggesting they might is dangerous nonsense.

The idea of collective consciousness is not superstition. It may be speculative as far as science is concerned....but it is a well established truism in philosophical terms.

[ProfessorDavey]

When large number of people pray or meditate together they go beyond the individual ego mind and enter the collective unconscious mind. When this mind is activated in a certain way, it can have profound results for all humanity.

Complete non-sense - the only thing that might be achieved by people praying (regardless of how many do so) is that they might feel galvanised into taking action. But I have to ask what kind of mind-set requires prayer to recognise the problems we are facing and the need for action.

Without action prayer will achieve exactly nothing, in fact it is worse than that as it may create a false sense of security that prayer will achieve something to improve climate change.

[Anchorman]

Complete non-sense - the only thing that might be achieved by people praying (regardless of how many do so) is that they might feel galvanised into taking action. But I have to ask what kind of mind-set requires prayer to recognise the problems we are facing and the need for action.

Without action prayer will achieve exactly nothing, in fact it is worse than that as it may create a false sense of security that prayer will achieve something to improve climate change.

   


With you there. James - the one in the Bible - wrote:"Faith without action is dead".
It's fine and dandy sitting looking holy, and praying. It might make you feel better, but, unless we put that faith into action and live what we pray, then, well, all we get is a sore, but holy, backside.
That's why i still count myself as a semi-detatched member of the Iona Community.

[Sriram]

Our actions are also  necessary...but they are insignificant compared to the complex issue involved. Prayer and meditations work through the collective consciousness and create suitable conditions over which we have no control.

[ekim]

Without action prayer will achieve exactly nothing,

...... unless you get a reply.  That's why I'm in the middle of building an ark.