Climate Change and Divine Intervention

[ProfessorDavey]

Our actions are also  necessary...but they are insignificant compared to the complex issue involved.

They may be insignificant on an individual basis, but far from insignificant if we act collectively.

Prayer and meditations work through the collective consciousness and create suitable conditions over which we have no control.

No - prayer without action achieves nothing. Action without prayer achieves exactly the same as action with prayer.

[ProfessorDavey]

With you there. James - the one in the Bible - wrote:"Faith without action is dead".

True, and action without faith is the same as action with faith.

It's fine and dandy sitting looking holy, and praying. It might make you feel better, but, unless we put that faith into action and live what we pray, then, well, all we get is a sore, but holy, backside.

Actually it isn't fine and dandy at all. As you imply there is a real danger that prayer, particularly public and collective prayer, becomes the worst form of virtue signalling. Something that produces no action whatsoever, distracts time and effort from real action and whose purpose is to make people 'feel better' (without actually making any change happen), not least because they think it makes them look all concerned and good.

[Enki]

You vastly underestimate the power of prayer.
It is increasingly evident that human endeavours alone will not save our planet from the current climate crisis.
We need a miracle, which God alone can give through the power of prayer.

Presumably if only enough people aboard the Titanic had prayed(in the right way, of course) a miracle would have happened and it wouldn't have sunk at all. 

[Aruntraveller]

Presumably if only enough people aboard the Titanic had prayed(in the right way, of course) a miracle would have happened and it wouldn't have sunk at all. 

Quite.

I was struck by something on the reporting of a totally different news item which was about the Australian case of a young girl who was found safe and well after being abducted.

The BBC reporter said "the prayers of people across Australia have been answered". Unbelievably crass. Why?

Because in many of these sad cases the result is quite the opposite and the child is dead/abused/never found.

Has any reporter ever said "the prayers of people have not been answered" because if that is the benchmark for reporting surely they should?

Or did people not pray hard enough or in the correct way?

Or was the child who died/never found/abused not worthy of saving.

It was such a fucking lazy, insulting way of reporting.

And some of you may say it was just a turn of phrase, well it's still lazy, unfeeling, cruel reporting.

[Anchorman]

True, and action without faith is the same as action with faith.
Actually it isn't fine and dandy at all. As you imply there is a real danger that prayer, particularly public and collective prayer, becomes the worst form of virtue signalling. Something that produces no action whatsoever, distracts time and effort from real action and whose purpose is to make people 'feel better' (without actually making any change happen), not least because they think it makes them look all concerned and good.

   

I'll have to differ.
From my experience inthe IC, my morning prayer...when I can follow the 'rule', is something like;
Praise.
Silence.
Prasy over things on the news.
Ask what I can do about it.
Try to find what Scripture says...
Silence.
We bit of intercessory prayer...
Then up and at 'em, putting what I learned in the silence into action.
Whether it involves overtly 'holy' stuff doesn't really matter.
It's the doing in conjunction with the praying that matters.
'Laborare est orare'

[ProfessorDavey]

I'll have to differ.

On what? I thought you agreed that actions were more important than prayer.

From my experience inthe IC, my morning prayer...when I can follow the 'rule', is something like;
Praise.
Silence.
Prasy over things on the news.
Ask what I can do about it.
Try to find what Scripture says...
Silence.
We bit of intercessory prayer...
Then up and at 'em, putting what I learned in the silence into action.
Whether it involves overtly 'holy' stuff doesn't really matter.
It's the doing in conjunction with the praying that matters.
'Laborare est orare'

Thanks for telling us about your personal approach. A few points.

First, why is it necessary for you to spend a bunch of time in prayer in order to motivate you to action. If that is the case, what does that say about you. If not then the prayer is irrelevant to the action.

Secondly - how much time is spent on this - time which you could use in action.

Thirdly - It's the doing in conjunction with the praying that matters - what, at the same time. If someone was helping me - for example if I'd been injured and they were conducting first aid, I'd hope that they were entirely focussed on the job in hand, not being distracted by prayer.

But the broader point is that regardless of your own personal routine there are plenty of people for whom prayer, and being seen to pray, seems to be as far as they go in terms of engaging with issues. So they feel that it is 'job done, prayed for the planet, makes me feel a whole lot better' - pure lip service and ineffectual virtual signalling.

[Alan Burns]

Do you realise just how terrifying that comment is, particularly if your view is reflected in many other religious people, which sadly it is. If people think thank that the way to solve climate change is to sit around praying and wait for a miracle while taking no action then we really are screwed. And sadly (I think a much stronger word is needed) this is the attitude amongst too many religious people - note not all religious people but there is a strong stand of laissez faire attitudes amongst many religious communities around the world when it comes to climate change.

God answers prayers in many ways.
The answer could be a cooling down of the sun.
Or it could be in motivating the governments of China, Russia etc to take whatever action is needed.
Most people are not in a position to motivate governments, but we can all pray.
And I am certain that prayer will achieve much more than glueing oneself to a road.
Prayers cannot be answered if they are not made.

[Stranger]

God answers prayers in many ways.

Yeah, pray, then see what happens, and whatever it is, call it an answer.

Most people are not in a position to motivate governments, but we can all pray.

We can all do far more practical things than indulging in silly superstitions.

And I am certain that prayer will achieve much more than glueing oneself to a road.

Your certainty is not in the least bit convincing.

Prayers cannot be answered if they are not made.

So your cruel bastard of a god will just kill people because they didn't grovel enough.

[Gordon]

God answers prayers in many ways.
The answer could be a cooling down of the sun.

If that would work then why hasn't your 'God' done this already: and if it is considering doing this I do hope it takes into account what the consequences would be for the planet, such as precipitating a 'snowball Earth' situation - seems a bit radical to me.

Or it could be in motivating the governments of China, Russia etc to take whatever action is needed.
Most people are not in a position to motivate governments, but we can all pray.
And I am certain that prayer will achieve much more than glueing oneself to a road.
Prayers cannot be answered if they are not made.

Don't be silly.

[Anchorman]

On what? I thought you agreed that actions were more important than prayer.
Thanks for telling us about your personal approach. A few points.

First, why is it necessary for you to spend a bunch of time in prayer in order to motivate you to action. If that is the case, what does that say about you. If not then the prayer is irrelevant to the action.

Secondly - how much time is spent on this - time which you could use in action.

Thirdly - It's the doing in conjuncti on with the praying that matters - what, at the same time. If someone was helping me - for example if I'd been injured and they were conducting first aid, I'd hope that they were entirely focussed on the job in hand, not being distracted by prayer.

But the broader point is that regardless of your own personal routine there are plenty of people for whom prayer, and being seen to pray, seems to be as far as they go in terms of engaging with issues. So they feel that it is 'job done, prayed for the planet, makes me feel a whole lot better' - pure lip service and ineffectual virtual signalling.

[Anchorman]

On what? I thought you agreed that actions were more important than prayer. Thanks for telling us about your personal approach. A few points. First, why is it necessary for you to spend a bunch of time in prayer in order to motivate you to action. If that is the case, what does that say about you. If not then the prayer is irrelevant to the action. Secondly - how much time is spent on this - time which you could use in action. Thirdly - It's the doing in conjunction with the praying that matters - what, at the same time. If someone was helping me - for example if I'd been injured and they were conducting first aid, I'd hope that they were entirely focussed on the job in hand, not being distracted by prayer. But the broader point is that regardless of your own personal routine there are plenty of people for whom prayer, and being seen to pray, seems to be as far as they go in terms of engaging with issues. So they feel that it is 'job done, prayed for the planet, makes me feel a whole lot better' - pure lip service and ineffectual virtual signalling.

Why do I pray? Well, firstly because I am both commanded and advised to do so, and because I like spending time in prayer. When? Well, as posted earlier, I try to follow the 'rule', a set routine of prayers and worship from the Iona Community, which starts as soon as I wake up, and ends when I jit the sack. Thirdly, do I pray if I'm involved in doing something in my daily life? Yes, if I need to - though you needn't haveyour eyes closed, your mind closed or even your mouth open when you're doing it.

[Maeght]

God answers prayers in many ways.
The answer could be a cooling down of the sun.
Or it could be in motivating the governments of China, Russia etc to take whatever action is needed.
Most people are not in a position to motivate governments, but we can all pray.
And I am certain that prayer will achieve much more than glueing oneself to a road.
Prayers cannot be answered if they are not made.

Why should people have to pray? Doesn't God notice what's going on?

[ProfessorDavey]

Why do I pray? Well, firstly because I am both commanded and advised to do so, and because I like spending time in prayer. When? Well, as posted earlier, I try to follow the 'rule', a set routine of prayers and worship from the Iona Community, which starts as soon as I wake up, and ends when I jit the sack.

That's sounds like an awful lot of your day spent praying when you could actually be taking action to improve things.

Thirdly, do I pray if I'm involved in doing something in my daily life? Yes, if I need to - though you needn't haveyour eyes closed, your mind closed or even your mouth open when you're doing it.

Which means you cannot be giving your full attention and concentration on the thing you are supposed to be doing. Good job your aren't a surgeon - I doubt many patients would have much confidence in a surgeon who whose concentration on the surgery they are performing is distracting because they are also praying.

[BeRational]

God answers prayers in many ways.
The answer could be a cooling down of the sun.
Or it could be in motivating the governments of China, Russia etc to take whatever action is needed.
Most people are not in a position to motivate governments, but we can all pray.
And I am certain that prayer will achieve much more than glueing oneself to a road.
Prayers cannot be answered if they are not made.

The sun will get hotter over time not cooler.

[Maeght]

The sun will get hotter over time not cooler.

The suggestion was though that God would answer people's prayers by cooling the Sun, I think. Why God couldn't just do that without the need for prayers is my question.

[ekim]

Why should people have to pray? Doesn't God notice what's going on?

"God knows your needs before you ask".... Jesus
Matt 6 6:8

[Maeght]

"God knows your needs before you ask".... Jesus
Matt 6 6:8

So won't do anything unless asked. Even though God loves us all, apparently.

[Alan Burns]

So won't do anything unless asked. Even though God loves us all, apparently.

I hope that one day you will come to know just how much God has done for you - even though you did not ask.

[Alan Burns]

The sun will get hotter over time not cooler.

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/solar-energy-fluctuations-detected
from the above link:
The entire history of humankind, lived out in the last several million years, has occurred during abnormally cold times. There is evidence that the Earth has been growing colder for about 90 million years, and scientists believe the average global temperature may drop ten or more degrees in the next several million years.

[Gordon]

I hope that one day you will come to know just how much God has done for you - even though you did not ask.

In that case I must remember to thank 'God' for giving me prostate cancer without me asking,

[Aruntraveller]

In that case I must remember to thank 'God' for giving me prostate cancer without me asking,

You should know by now, God only takes credit for the good things that happen. Funny that.

[BeRational]

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/solar-energy-fluctuations-detected
from the above link:
The entire history of humankind, lived out in the last several million years, has occurred during abnormally cold times. There is evidence that the Earth has been growing colder for about 90 million years, and scientists believe the average global temperature may drop ten or more degrees in the next several million years.

https://usm.maine.edu/planet/sun-getting-hotter-if-so-why-will-earth-eventually-become-too-hot-life

[torridon]

https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/solar-energy-fluctuations-detected
from the above link:
The entire history of humankind, lived out in the last several million years, has occurred during abnormally cold times. There is evidence that the Earth has been growing colder for about 90 million years, and scientists believe the average global temperature may drop ten or more degrees in the next several million years.

Hmm.  That article is rather out of date,  it is over 40 years old after all.  Earth has cooled very significantly over the 55 million years (not 90 million) since the Paleocene/Eocene thermal maximum and particularly over the last 40 million years, but this not due to a reduction in solar output but rather due to severe drop in atmospheric CO2 levels to an unprecedented low around 20,000 years back, and this drop in CO2 is linked to the rise in the Himalayas due to the collision of the Indian and Eurasian plates causing a massive CO2 drawdown.  There might be a slight drop in solar output this century, a run of unusually quiet years is leading to speculation the Sun may be entering a Grand Solar Minimum, but even so, this would not be sufficient to offset the projected temperature rise from a business-as-usual emissions pathway.               

[Maeght]

I hope that one day you will come to know just how much God has done for you - even though you did not ask.

So why did you suggest that people need to pray for God to do something about climate change?

[Alan Burns]

So why did you suggest that people need to pray for God to do something about climate change?

Try thinking of it as the relationship between parent and child.
The parent will do many things for the benefit of their child which the child will not be fully aware of.
A loving parent will also be open to specific requests from their child.