Climate Change and Divine Intervention

[Gordon]

Try thinking of it a the relationship between parent and child.
The parent will do many things for the benefit of their child which the child will not be fully aware of.
A loving parent will also be open to specific requests from their child.

Any chance my 'loving parent' would make my prostate cancer go away? I'd rather like that, and so would my family and friends.

Somehow I suspect I'll be disappointed.

[Nearly Sane]

Try thinking of it a the relationship between parent and child.
The parent will do many things for the benefit of their child which the child will not be fully aware of.
A loving parent will also be open to specific requests from their child.

And your god murders children with leukaemia. And chooses to do it. You worship a psychopath.

[Maeght]

Try thinking of it a the relationship between parent and child.
The parent will do many things for the benefit of their child which the child will not be fully aware of.
A loving parent will also be open to specific requests from their child.

That isn't an answer. God is supposed to love mankind and must know that climate change will lead to suffering and death but you are saying that for God to do anything about it man has to pray. That's different from being open to specific requests from a child. So how many people have to pray? If one does is that enough? if not, will that one person who prayed suffer due to others not praying - so God will decide not to help that person because not enough people asked?

[Alan Burns]

That isn't an answer. God is supposed to love mankind and must know that climate change will lead to suffering and death but you are saying that for God to do anything about it man has to pray. That's different from being open to specific requests from a child. So how many people have to pray? If one does is that enough? if not, will that one person who prayed suffer due to others not praying - so God will decide not to help that person because not enough people asked?

In the new Testament, Jesus claims that He was unable to perform miracles because of people's lack of faith. (Mark 6:5-6)
I believe that prayer is the essential key to unlock God's power here on earth.

[Alan Burns]

Any chance my 'loving parent' would make my prostate cancer go away? I'd rather like that, and so would my family and friends.

I will make the request on your behalf, Gordon.
And I sincerely hope it will be successful.

[Nearly Sane]

I will make the request on your behalf, Gordon.
And I sincerely hope it will be successful.

your thug god created prostate cancer. You worship a malevolent mass murderer.

[Gordon]

I will make the request on your behalf, Gordon.
And I sincerely hope it will be successful.

Thank you anyway for the good intentions in trying - but aren't you taking a risk here in that if I'm not miraculously cured it means that either: 'God' wants me to have prostate cancer, prayers have no effect on 'God', 'God' can't actually cure me even if it wanted to, or that there is no 'God' listening to prayers?

I have a bone scan on the 15th, a CT scan on the 23rd, and I'll get the results on the 30th - I'll let you know if they show that I am cured: which, if so, will no doubt be a major surprise to the people looking after me since they clearly don't see 'cure' as being an option in my case. 

[Maeght]

In the new Testament, Jesus claims that He was unable to perform miracles because of people's lack of faith. (Mark 6:5-6)
I believe that prayer is the essential key to unlock God's power here on earth.

I understand that that is one interpretation of Mark 6:5-6, but are you saying that God cannot act without being asked to? Who asked him to create the Universe etc? How many people have to ask - you haven't answered my questions about how many people need to ask God to intervene on climate change. What stops God acting on earth without people asking?

[Gordon]

Moderator:

This thread had been created from posts originally posted in the 'Climate Change is Upon Us' thread.

[Outrider]

You vastly underestimate the power of prayer.

No, I see no evidence for any 'power' in prayer beyond perhaps a certain meditative individual psychological effect. There's no evidence that prayer has any demonstrable effects outside of the invidual.

It is increasingly evident that human endeavours alone will not save our planet from the current climate crisis.

It does seem likely that we are beyond the point where we can undo what's been done in the any short term sense; that said, it's just as evident that there is no other recourse than changing human endeavours, given the lack of alternative influences, or we can accept the damage runaway climate change will have on our cultures and environments.

We need a miracle, which God alone can give through the power of prayer.

People spent millenia praying for salvation from diseases; if God did choose to act, he did so through the human endeavours of germ theory and hygiene, vaccinations and antibiotics. Even if you think this is down to God, why presume the methodology would change this time, why would the action not be through human endeavour? God seems to have gotten out of the miracle business a long time ago.

O.

Edited to correct formatting error

[Sriram]

I understand that that is one interpretation of Mark 6:5-6, but are you saying that God cannot act without being asked to? Who asked him to create the Universe etc? How many people have to ask - you haven't answered my questions about how many people need to ask God to intervene on climate change. What stops God acting on earth without people asking?

The concept of God is very tricky. In religions he is imagined in various ways. But philosophically speaking, God is seen as our own inner Self.   There are several levels of Consciousness with human consciousness being at the lowest microscopic level. Different higher levels of consciousness have different spheres of influence.

Humans can influence certain higher levels of consciousness through collective effort. It is not really about God himself.
 

[Maeght]

The concept of God is very tricky. In religions he is imagined in various ways. But philosophically speaking, God is seen as our own inner Self.   There are several levels of Consciousness with human consciousness being at the lowest microscopic level. Different higher levels of consciousness have different spheres of influence.

Humans can influence certain higher levels of consciousness through collective effort. It is not really about God himself.
 

I don't think Alan Burns thinks that.

[ProfessorDavey]

The concept of God is very tricky. In religions he is imagined in various ways. But philosophically speaking, God is seen as our own inner Self.   There are several levels of Consciousness with human consciousness being at the lowest microscopic level. Different higher levels of consciousness have different spheres of influence.

I don't think that is how christians traditionally see god - I think they consider god to be an entity outside of ourselves rather than a manifestation of our inner self.

Humans can influence certain higher levels of consciousness through collective effort. It is not really about God himself.

in which case god isn't required for collective effort.

[Sriram]

The concept of God  and a superior power outside oneself, is very important to subdue the ego consciousness.  Even some Christians consider God as within oneself....

[Alan Burns]

Look what happened the last time our nation (the UK) was called to a day of prayer by King George VI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8vyfp0aVHk&t=4s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulgEkXcXtd8

I fear that the Cop26 conference missed a great opportunity in not calling for a world day of prayer to solve the climate crisis.

[Outrider]

Look what happened the last time our nation (the UK) was called to a day of prayer by King George VI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8vyfp0aVHk&t=4s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulgEkXcXtd8

I fear that the Cop26 conference missed a great opportunity in not calling for a world day of prayer to solve the climate crisis.

So soon after Remembrance Day, too...

Brave men and women accomplished the Dunkirk evacuation. Fishermen, recreational sailors, ex-Royal Navy and any number of others. God didn't lift the soldiers from one place, there was no 'miracle' in the divine sense, there was blood, sweat, toil, fear and thousands of deaths.

Eighteen ships and over two-hundred of the small ships were sunk, taking crew and evacuating soldiers with them.

This was not an act of any god, this was desperate men in the face of an entirely human evil doing what they could.

Don't cheapen it by taking away that accomplishment for your fairy godfather.

O.

[Maeght]

Look what happened the last time our nation (the UK) was called to a day of prayer by King George VI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8vyfp0aVHk&t=4s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulgEkXcXtd8

I fear that the Cop26 conference missed a great opportunity in not calling for a world day of prayer to solve the climate crisis.

Why should people need to pray? You haven't answered that question.

No reason to think that Dunkirk was anything other than a result of human bravery rather than divine intervention.

[Alan Burns]

So soon after Remembrance Day, too...

Brave men and women accomplished the Dunkirk evacuation. Fishermen, recreational sailors, ex-Royal Navy and any number of others. God didn't lift the soldiers from one place, there was no 'miracle' in the divine sense, there was blood, sweat, toil, fear and thousands of deaths.

Eighteen ships and over two-hundred of the small ships were sunk, taking crew and evacuating soldiers with them.

This was not an act of any god, this was desperate men in the face of an entirely human evil doing what they could.

Don't cheapen it by taking away that accomplishment for your fairy godfather.

O.

I am not denying the immense human effort and bravery involved in Dunkirk.
But it would all have been in vain if -

*  Hitler had not diverted the bulk of his ground troops south
*  A freak storm had not prevented many German fighter planes from taking off
*  A once in a generation calm had not allowed many small vessels to cross the English channel
*  A thick fog had not formed to protect the vessels from air attack
*  Millions of people had not answered the call from King George VI to pray for God's help.

You may try to write it all off as coincidence, but it has happened before -

https://www.churchpop.com/2016/10/06/rosary-saved-christendom-extraordinary-miracle-lepanto/

[Outrider]

I am not denying the immense human effort and bravery involved in Dunkirk.
But it would all have been in vain if -

*  Hitler had not diverted the bulk of his ground troops south
*  A freak storm had not prevented many German fighter planes from taking off
*  A once in a generation calm had not allowed many small vessels to cross the English channel
*  A thick fog had not formed to protect the vessels from air attack
*  Millions of people had not answered the call from King George VI to pray for God's help.

You may try to write it all off as coincidence, but it has happened before -

https://www.churchpop.com/2016/10/06/rosary-saved-christendom-extraordinary-miracle-lepanto/

I specifically didn't write it off as coincidence, I put it down to the efforts of people.

Hitler's strategic and tactical ineptitude was demonstrated innumerable times throughout the war itself, and in some of the political and social decisions in the lead up to the war - it was not something unique to the Dunkirk evacuation.

In the early years of the war the capability of German air power to function in all weathers was limited - slightly more so than the allies. The forward base areas they were trying to operate from were in areas where the inclement weather was more likely, again these were not unique events to the Dunkirk evacuation.

The weather was fortuitous, but not 'once in a generation'; the particulars of the operation were conducted in response to the weather, in at least some instances.

And the millions of people who answered the call - they were defending their way of life, stepping up when called upon. Maybe some of them - most of them, given the era - were believers, but that doesn't suggest that God had anything to do with it. If they were praying, how many of them were praying for Hitler to fall to a heart attack, or to die in the 20th July Plot, or to have a building collapse on him during a bombing run... and none of those happened.

If you want to claim responsibility for the Dunkirk evacuation for your god, you need to take responsibility for the Holocaust for your god, too. I'm more inclined to see both of those as the result of the range of human behaviour, from the laudable to the deplorable.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

I am not denying the immense human effort and bravery involved in Dunkirk.
But it would all have been in vain if -

*  Hitler had not diverted the bulk of his ground troops south
*  A freak storm had not prevented many German fighter planes from taking off
*  A once in a generation calm had not allowed many small vessels to cross the English channel
*  A thick fog had not formed to protect the vessels from air attack
*  Millions of people had not answered the call from King George VI to pray for God's help.

You may try to write it all off as coincidence, but it has happened before -

https://www.churchpop.com/2016/10/06/rosary-saved-christendom-extraordinary-miracle-lepanto/

Your god wanted the Holocaust, chose for it to happen, and bathed in the blood. You worship a psychopath.

[jeremyp]

Try thinking of it as the relationship between parent and child.
The parent will do many things for the benefit of their child which the child will not be fully aware of.
A loving parent will also be open to specific requests from their child.

Do you think there are no people praying to God to help us out with the climate change thing?

How many of us need to pray before God will step in and save us?

[Udayana]

Do you think there are no people praying to God to help us out with the climate change thing?

How many of us need to pray before God will step in and save us?

Clearly not enough!

Now, if everyone with a (per capita) carbon footprint greater than that of, currently, an average Indian, spent half the day praying, I reckon global warming would slow down enough to be sustainable.

[Maeght]

Do you think there are no people praying to God to help us out with the climate change thing?

How many of us need to pray before God will step in and save us?

I asked that earlier but didn't get a response.

[Outrider]

Clearly not enough!

Or, perhaps, too many. If the Evangelical American politicians advocating for praying to God INSTEAD of taking action themselves are anything to go by, perhaps we could do with a few less people praying.

Now, if everyone with a (per capita) carbon footprint greater than that of, currently, an average Indian, spent half the day praying, I reckon global warming would slow down enough to be sustainable.

On the basis that they'd be praying for 12 hours, and sleeping for (on average) 8 I suppose that would reduce the time they could spend on activities that contributed to climate change... I don't see any other way in which it's going to have an impact.

O.

[Udayana]

Or, perhaps, too many. If the Evangelical American politicians advocating for praying to God INSTEAD of taking action themselves are anything to go by, perhaps we could do with a few less people praying.

On the basis that they'd be praying for 12 hours, and sleeping for (on average) 8 I suppose that would reduce the time they could spend on activities that contributed to climate change... I don't see any other way in which it's going to have an impact.

O.

Exactly. Praying instead of driving around in gas guzzling pick ups would certainly help. We could go back to a middle ages level of consumption.

More meditating, fasting and stationary lives in monasteries or nunneries might help too.