Many paths

[ProfessorDavey]

...without a clue as to what you are arguing about.

Says the person who claims that jains are generally atheist when the actual evidence shows that just one in one hundred are.

[ProfessorDavey]

Does the system allow for different beliefs including atheism...yes it does.

Actually even that (in a theoretical sense) is a highly contested point. Not just by me Sriram, but by your co-religionists within your own county (assuming you are a hindu based in India).

So nigh on half of Indian hindus think that you cannot be a hindu if you do not believe in god.

So not only are virtually all hindus theists it is very far from universally accepted that you even can be an atheist hindu.

[ProfessorDavey]

So...it is possible to follow Hindu philosophies and be an atheist.

But even that point is highly contested ... amongst ... err ... hindus. See above.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

There you go

https://www.pewforum.org/2021/06/29/religion-in-india-tolerance-and-segregation/

Stuff on belief in god/gods is about half way down. Rather detailed and rather impressive research I think you'll find. Pew are good for this kind of stuff.

Thanks - this is really interesting. In India despite rapid economic growth, India’s population so far shows few, if any, signs of losing its religion. Religion is prominent in the lives of Indians regardless of their socioeconomic status or level of college education. Which is very different from the Western European experience since WW2. But the biggest exception is Christians in India, among whom those with higher education and those who reside in urban areas show somewhat lower levels of observance. So there seems to be something common to Christian beliefs and practices in Europe and to a lesser extent in India, that leads to a higher degree of non-observance.

A substantial minority of Muslims express a degree of open-mindedness on who can be a Muslim, with fully one-third (34%) saying a person can be Muslim even if they don’t believe in God. (The survey finds that 6% of self-described Muslims in India say they do not believe in God). I can't find any further info on what they mean when they say they don't believe in God.

Most Muslims in India say a person cannot be Muslim if they never pray or attend a mosque. Similarly, about six-in-ten say that celebrating Diwali or Christmas is incompatible with being a member of the Muslim community. And what's funny is that more Muslims think eating pork is incompatible with identifying as a Muslim compared to not believing in God.

Nice to see 85-91% of those surveyed from the following religions - Hindu, Muslim, Christian Sikh, Buddhist, Jain - feel they can practise their religion freely. Of the Muslims surveyed 89% said that so it paints a different picture from the one created by the media by focusing on Hindu nationalist violence against Muslims in India.

But 64% of Hindus say it is very important to be a Hindu to be truly Indian - so that seems a Hindu nationalist view. Of those 64% about 80% also say it is very important to speak Hindi to be truly Indian. Though this view is far more common in the parts of India where Hindi is spoken, compared with just 5% having this view in South India, where Hindi is not spoken much. But despite this support for Hindu nationalism about half the Hindus seem to think that on balance religious diversity benefits India. More Muslims than Hindus think Partition was a bad thing for Hindu-Muslim relations.

And 78 - 85% think it is an important part of being truly Indian to respect all religions.
And 73- 85% think it is a very important part of their religious identity to respect other religions

So this supports the Many Paths idea.

And 77% of Hindus and Muslims in India believe in Karma. Nearly three-in-ten Muslims and Christians say they believe in reincarnation (27% and 29%, respectively) despite the obvious theological contradictions and lack of Muslim or Christian religious doctrine supporting those beliefs. That just goes to show how prevailing culture can really influence beliefs. I don't think I know any Muslims here in the UK who believe in karma or reincarnation, in the few conversations I have had with people about it.

Substantial minorities of Christians (31%) and Muslims (20%) report that they do celebrate Diwali (Deepavali in Sri Lanka). Coincidentally, I was at a Deepavali celebration last night at the Sri Lanka High Commission, representing a Muslim organisation.

I see they seem to be following some of our evolutionary innate moral mind traits suggested by Haidt (based on research) that we tend to form groups and tribes and worry about sanctity/ purity (in relation to food). Though there is variation across regions. Southern Indian Hindus are considerably less likely than others to disqualify beef eaters from being Hindu (50% vs. 83% in the Northern and Central parts of the country).

Also the different religious groups see themselves as very different from each other. In-group loyalty seems important in Indian culture. 67% of Hindus surveyed think it is very important to stop Hindus marrying outside their religion. 80% of the Muslims surveyed think the same way about Muslims marrying outside their religion. I assume the Hindus and Muslims mean in situations where the spouse does not convert. So most Indians seem to want to keep separate from other groups but at the same time tolerate other groups - patchwork fabric rather than a melting pot of cultures.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

But even that point is highly contested ... amongst ... err ... hindus. See above.

Yes but so what. I don't think anyone was claiming that there was group think all over India and everyone thought the same or even that the majority of Indians were atheist. Diversity of thought is a good thing. So long as Hindu philosophy does not rule out atheism as being compatible with it, then the point Sriram made that you can be atheist and follow Hindu philosophy stands.  And there is no reason why we need to take your view of what atheism entails or even a Western European view of what atheism entails. This board is Philosophy in all its Guises. Who here is saying that should be read as meaning only Western European Philosophy in all its Guises?   

You can disagree from your narrow perspective about the definition of atheism. Of course in relation to abstract concepts there will be a wide variety of thoughts and ideas from different parts of the world. There is diversity on the meaning of abstract concepts just in one region. Look at the arguments in the UK from people who identify as socialist about whether New Labour can be considered as Truly Labour or should be considered Tory Lite.   

[ProfessorDavey]

Thanks - this is really interesting. In India despite rapid economic growth, India’s population so far shows few, if any, signs of losing its religion. Religion is prominent in the lives of Indians regardless of their socioeconomic status or level of college education. Which is very different from the Western European experience since WW2. But the biggest exception is Christians in India, among whom those with higher education and those who reside in urban areas show somewhat lower levels of observance. So there seems to be something common to Christian beliefs and practices in Europe and to a lesser extent in India, that leads to a higher degree of non-observance.

A substantial minority of Muslims express a degree of open-mindedness on who can be a Muslim, with fully one-third (34%) saying a person can be Muslim even if they don’t believe in God. (The survey finds that 6% of self-described Muslims in India say they do not believe in God). I can't find any further info on what they mean when they say they don't believe in God.

Most Muslims in India say a person cannot be Muslim if they never pray or attend a mosque. Similarly, about six-in-ten say that celebrating Diwali or Christmas is incompatible with being a member of the Muslim community. And what's funny is that more Muslims think eating pork is incompatible with identifying as a Muslim compared to not believing in God.

Nice to see 85-91% of those surveyed from the following religions - Hindu, Muslim, Christian Sikh, Buddhist, Jain - feel they can practise their religion freely. Of the Muslims surveyed 89% said that so it paints a different picture from the one created by the media by focusing on Hindu nationalist violence against Muslims in India.

But 64% of Hindus say it is very important to be a Hindu to be truly Indian - so that seems a Hindu nationalist view. Of those 64% about 80% also say it is very important to speak Hindi to be truly Indian. Though this view is far more common in the parts of India where Hindi is spoken, compared with just 5% having this view in South India, where Hindi is not spoken much. But despite this support for Hindu nationalism about half the Hindus seem to think that on balance religious diversity benefits India. More Muslims than Hindus think Partition was a bad thing for Hindu-Muslim relations.

And 78 - 85% think it is an important part of being truly Indian to respect all religions.
And 73- 85% think it is a very important part of their religious identity to respect other religions

So this supports the Many Paths idea.

And 77% of Hindus and Muslims in India believe in Karma. Nearly three-in-ten Muslims and Christians say they believe in reincarnation (27% and 29%, respectively) despite the obvious theological contradictions and lack of Muslim or Christian religious doctrine supporting those beliefs. That just goes to show how prevailing culture can really influence beliefs. I don't think I know any Muslims here in the UK who believe in karma or reincarnation, in the few conversations I have had with people about it.

Substantial minorities of Christians (31%) and Muslims (20%) report that they do celebrate Diwali (Deepavali in Sri Lanka). Coincidentally, I was at a Deepavali celebration last night at the Sri Lanka High Commission, representing a Muslim organisation.

I see they seem to be following some of our evolutionary innate moral mind traits suggested by Haidt (based on research) that we tend to form groups and tribes and worry about sanctity/ purity (in relation to food). Though there is variation across regions. Southern Indian Hindus are considerably less likely than others to disqualify beef eaters from being Hindu (50% vs. 83% in the Northern and Central parts of the country).

Also the different religious groups see themselves as very different from each other. In-group loyalty seems important in Indian culture. 67% of Hindus surveyed think it is very important to stop Hindus marrying outside their religion. 80% of the Muslims surveyed think the same way about Muslims marrying outside their religion. I assume the Hindus and Muslims mean in situations where the spouse does not convert. So most Indians seem to want to keep separate from other groups but at the same time tolerate other groups - patchwork fabric rather than a melting pot of cultures.

I think these really in depth Pew studies are really interesting - there is certainly a lot to chew on in here. And previously I posted an even more in depth one on religion in western europe.

I think in the context of the current thread the interesting point is that while Sriram may claim that hindu religious philosophy is just as much for atheists as theists, the numbers don't bear that out with the overwhelming majority (98%) of hindus being theist. So the question is why hinduism in practice is overwhelmingly a religion of theists, why are there so few atheists if it is as Sriram described, not about belief in god.

The second point, which may relate to the first - why do pretty well half of hindus reject Sriram's notion that you can be hindu and atheist. Throw in the data on nationalism - with 64% of people saying that it very important to be a Hindu to be truly Indian and what you end up with is a sizeable minority (perhaps a third of the population) who in effect do not think that atheists can be truly indian, as you cannot be an atheist and hindua and you must be hindu to be truly indian. That is probably a quite chilling attitude for anyone who is atheist and indian.

And the different between the 'theory' and the reality is important. If there was a company who claimed that they were equally welcoming and open to people regardless of sex, yet 98% of their employees were men, we might very well ask whether it is really true that they are welcoming to women.

[ProfessorDavey]

Yes but so what.

I think it is rather important in the context of this discussion - Sriram's main claim here is that hindu religious philosophy is for atheists just as much as for theists and that believe in god is unimportant. But this basic premise is clearly not a universal view even amongst hindus, indeed it is very far from a universal view with hindus pretty well split straight down the middle as to whether they even consider that you can be atheist and hindu, let alone whether hinduism is equally for atheists and theists. Clearly pretty well half of hindus certainly think belief in god is important in hinduism as they don't think you can be a hindu and not believe in god.

[Sriram]

1. Whether the western definition of 'atheist' has been explained to everyone in the survey is a relevant issue. Most Indians think of an atheist as a person who does not believe in any spiritual matters including after-life, celestial realms etc. It is not restricted to disbelieving in just a supreme creator. Jains and Buddhists are most certainly atheists by the western definition but not by the broader definition.

2. With the rise of nationalistic tendencies in recent years, people may have developed a India is Hindu mentality specifically in relation to Muslims and their terrorist activities. When people feel threatened they close ranks. Like it happens in other countries also. Pakistan with its focus on Kashmir militancy does not help change the general mood. All this has nothing to do with Hindu teachings.

3. Why most people are theists and not atheists is not for anyone to question. You are now becoming evangelical.... 

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I think it is rather important in the context of this discussion - Sriram's main claim here is that hindu religious philosophy is for atheists just as much as for theists and that believe in god is unimportant.

I don't think Sriram was making that claim in his OP - I read his claim as saying, being atheist does not prevent you following Hindu philosophy. Whether the actual followers of Hindu philosophy or the population of Indian are in practice equally made up of theists and atheists (they clearly are not) is a different claim and not one that is being made in this thread. There could be all kinds of reasons why in practice people prefer to belong to a religious group - maybe they find a lot of benefits from a religious identity e.g. feeling connected, shared rituals that can be performed together, shared traditions and history that might make bolster self-esteem, it's fun etc

But this basic premise is clearly not a universal view even amongst hindus, indeed it is very far from a universal view with hindus pretty well split straight down the middle as to whether they even consider that you can be atheist and hindu, let alone whether hinduism is equally for atheists and theists. Clearly pretty well half of hindus certainly think belief in god is important in hinduism as they don't think you can be a hindu and not believe in god.

Again - I think you misunderstood Sriram's claim. He said Hindu philosophy allows for atheism - so we're very much looking at the theoretical. The reality might not match theory because people have different tastes and preferences and in Indian culture their tastes run to being religious. But that doesn't mean a philosophy cannot say it's ok to be theist or atheist.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I think these really in depth Pew studies are really interesting - there is certainly a lot to chew on in here. And previously I posted an even more in depth one on religion in western europe.

I think in the context of the current thread the interesting point is that while Sriram may claim that hindu religious philosophy is just as much for atheists as theists, the numbers don't bear that out with the overwhelming majority (98%) of hindus being theist. So the question is why hinduism in practice is overwhelmingly a religion of theists, why are there so few atheists if it is as Sriram described, not about belief in god.

The second point, which may relate to the first - why do pretty well half of hindus reject Sriram's notion that you can be hindu and atheist. Throw in the data on nationalism - with 64% of people saying that it very important to be a Hindu to be truly Indian and what you end up with is a sizeable minority (perhaps a third of the population) who in effect do not think that atheists can be truly indian, as you cannot be an atheist and hindua and you must be hindu to be truly indian. That is probably a quite chilling attitude for anyone who is atheist and indian.

And the different between the 'theory' and the reality is important. If there was a company who claimed that they were equally welcoming and open to people regardless of sex, yet 98% of their employees were men, we might very well ask whether it is really true that they are welcoming to women.

I am not sure a philosophy can be welcoming. Surely it's the job of people to be welcoming and if the theory does not prevent them from being welcoming then the issue is the people practising the theory. A theory can't control how people interpret or practise it as all the structures and processes in a company or community or society that are not in the theory's control or remit are created by people and will have a significant impact on how any theory will actually be put into practice.

Also, I am not convinced by some of these gender equality concerns people raise. There seem to be lots of times women just don't want the job that men want.

For example, I am the 1st woman President of a 50 year old Muslim organisation because no other woman wanted the job in the last 25 years the organisation has been trying to push for a woman President. Women have served as Treasurer and Secretary but for some reason a woman did not want to lead it.

I couldn't be bothered either but was convinced by the argument that we need to break this unwillingness for women to take the position and if I do it, other women in the community are more likely to follow. And women are really good at certain aspects of the role so it's not a lack of skills that stop them taking the role. Maybe a lack of confidence - maybe due to lower levels of testosterone - which means maybe they are less likely to take a risk. But it's a thankless voluntary job, managing annoying petty politics amongst members, managing a building we own,  legal paperwork,  admin and technology issues, putting on events, representing the organisation at external events, holding regular Committee meetings etc, organising the AGM.

But the men in the community who have been President seem to like to be President, whereas the women's attitude is we have other issues we have to deal with (family, work) and we don't want to give up our spare time to meetings and we don't want to have to drive around the city attending events in the evening to represent the organisation when we could be at home or with our friends and family, and we don't want to have to go introduce ourselves to complete strangers and talk to them to raise the profile of the organisation we represent or try and secure sponsorship.   

So I think in practice, whether you see diversity in a company, organisation or society has a lot more to do with other factors in society than just theoretical policies. 

[ProfessorDavey]

1. Whether the western definition of 'atheist' has been explained to everyone in the survey is a relevant issue. Most Indians think of an atheist as a person who does not believe in any spiritual matters including after-life, celestial realms etc. It is not restricted to disbelieving in just a supreme creator.

Did you actually bother to read the Pew research I linked to Sriram? I would have thought you'd have found it interesting. Had you done so you would have recognised that the researchers didn't ask people 'are you an atheist?' - no they asked people 'do you believe in god/gods'. So the definition of atheist isn't really relevant, is it, as they weren't asked whether they were atheist.

Now in terms of definitions I think firstly you are stretching things - atheist means, by definition, 'a' (i.e. not)-'theist' (i.e. believer in god/gods). There can't really be alternative definitions. But even if you argue that Indians consider atheism to go beyond just non belief in god, to include the other aspects you mentioned, this would shrink further the numbers captured by the research. So currently in the survey someone who does not believe in god but considers themselves spiritual etc will be in the 2%, not believing in god category. If you add in the having not to believe in any spiritual matters that person will shift from the atheist category further shrinking it. So your argument actually works the other way around - or at least does if you bothered to check what question was being asked.

Jains and Buddhists are most certainly atheists by the western definition but not by the broader definition.

The western definition (actually the definition) of atheist is someone who does not believe in god or gods, so will answer no to the question 'do you believe in god/gods' - that is what the survey asked of Jains and just 1% (using the western definition) indicated they were atheist. Sure there was a larger proportion of Buddhists who didn't believe in god (not unexpected), but still only 33%, compared to 66% who do believe in god.

So I'm sorry Sriram you cannot just make these hand waving assertions which are easily disproved by real research - ask Jains if they believe in god and 99% say they do - those 99% aren't atheist by any definition you choose to use.

[Sriram]

I don't know what the research is worth when it goes against basic Jain tenets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Jainism

********
In Jainism, godliness is said to be the inherent quality of every soul. This quality, however, is subdued by the soul's association with karmic matter. All souls who have achieved the natural state of infinite bliss, infinite knowledge (kevala jnana), infinite power and infinite perception are regarded as God in Jainism. Jainism rejects the idea of a creator deity responsible for the manifestation, creation, or maintenance of this universe. According to Jain doctrine, the universe and its constituents (soul, matter, space, time, and principles of motion) have always existed. All the constituents and actions are governed by universal natural laws and perfect soul, an immaterial entity cannot create or affect a material entity like the universe.[1]

********

[ProfessorDavey]

I don't know what the research is worth when it goes against basic Jain tenets.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Jainism

********
In Jainism, godliness is said to be the inherent quality of every soul. This quality, however, is subdued by the soul's association with karmic matter. All souls who have achieved the natural state of infinite bliss, infinite knowledge (kevala jnana), infinite power and infinite perception are regarded as God in Jainism. Jainism rejects the idea of a creator deity responsible for the manifestation, creation, or maintenance of this universe. According to Jain doctrine, the universe and its constituents (soul, matter, space, time, and principles of motion) have always existed. All the constituents and actions are governed by universal natural laws and perfect soul, an immaterial entity cannot create or affect a material entity like the universe.[1]

********

Which makes it very clear that Jains do believe in god - just not in a creator god. Sriram, you seem to like definitions at the moment - not all gods purported to exist are creator gods.

To be an atheist you don't believe in any god or gods, not just that you don't believe in creator gods. So using your own post Jains most definitely are not atheist as they believe in a god. Which is exactly what the Pew research found - 99% say they believe in a gods/gods and are therefore not atheist.

Face it Sriram - the very notion that you'd have a wiki page entitled 'God in Jainism' tells you that err ... god is a part of Jainism.

[Sriram]

Oh...for heavens sake Prof...! 

Ok..Cheers.

[ProfessorDavey]

I don't know what the research is worth when it goes against basic Jain tenets.

The research tells us what proportion of Jains believe in god/gods. And that is 99%. Sorry if the evidence doesn't fit with your assertions, but I suggest you take that up with the researchers and more importantly with the 99% of Jains who say they believe in god/gods and are therefore, by definition, not atheist. And I suspect they are perfectly comfortable that their theism is completely consistent with Jainism, as indeed your wiki page demonstrates.