Author Topic: Should he stay or should he go?  (Read 25018 times)

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #475 on: July 11, 2022, 09:05:48 AM »
And the points made about the news media finding that the cakes and drink vasty outweigh the good things is something that has annoyed me from the start ...
Stop trivialising things - it is irrelevant whether it was cake, or guacamole, or curry. The point is that he broke the law, a law that he, himself had implemented and imposed on everyone. A law that he, and his colleagues, went on tv day after day telling us we all must obey or people would die. And by and large the population did as they were asked, and in doing so couldn't say goodbye to relatives as they died, missed out on seeing new born babies for months, lay scared and alone in care homes as relatives couldn't visit etc etc.

Now I'm not saying that the law was wrong, but it is jaw droppingly astonishing and beyond appalling that the very people who imposed the law on us were routinely breaking the law day after day by partying in number 10. And add to that that Johnson lied and lied and lied about this (there were no parties, all the rules were followed etc etc) - he lied to parliament, he lied to everyone of us. He needs to be kicked out of no10 right now as he is a disgrace to his office and the UK will continue to be an international laughing stock every day he remains PM.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #476 on: July 11, 2022, 09:13:42 AM »
Ah well, the choice of two which will be for the choice for Party members to vote for will b interesting  - I hope!
I can't remember where we'd got to on the Susan Doris party status. Are you still a member? I know you were in 2019 as you told us you supported Hunt. If you are a member and will therefore have a vote I trust you will take the greatest care to find out about the candidates and cast your vote wisely. It is a weird (and deeply unsatisfactory) anomaly of our system of government that a PM can be chosen by less than 200,000 people from a population of 60 million. I actually think it is more democratic to have a new PM selected by their MPs only as at least those MPs can claim cumulative support of millions via a democratic process. Party members - not so much.

SusanDoris

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #477 on: July 11, 2022, 09:31:10 AM »
I can't remember where we'd got to on the Susan Doris party status. Are you still a member? I know you were in 2019 as you told us you supported Hunt. If you are a member and will therefore have a vote I trust you will take the greatest care to find out about the candidates and cast your vote wisely. It is a weird (and deeply unsatisfactory) anomaly of our system of government that a PM can be chosen by less than 200,000 people from a population of 60 million. I actually think it is more democratic to have a new PM selected by their MPs only as at least those MPs can claim cumulative support of millions via a democratic process. Party members - not so much.
If you think I would vote for one of them without checking everything I could about them, then I am sorry to hear it.

If Richie Sumak - I'm not going to bother to look up the spelling of his name because if he's on the list then the other one is better for a start - and I'll spoil the paper  if the other one is not right as far as I'm concerned. I shal then write to my MP and tell him what I have done.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 09:37:54 AM by SusanDoris »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #478 on: July 11, 2022, 09:40:54 AM »
If you think I would vote for one of them without checking everthing I coud about them, then I am sorry to hear it.

If Richie Sumak - I'm not going to bother to look up the spelling of his name because if he's on the list then the other one is better for a start - and I'll spoil the paper  if the other one is not right as far as I'm concerned. I shal then write to my MP and tell him what I have done.
So I assume this means you remain a member and therefore will have a vote.

Regarding checking people out - forgive me for implying that you might not do your homework but you own comments, such as:

"I'm not going to bother to look up the spelling of his name"
"That Tugan-something is possible, I suppose, but I don't think I'll bother to look him up."

Certainly implies a lack of interest in doing any homework, particularly seeing as you can't even be bothered to look up someone you suggest is possible. It is also rather disrespectful to appear to be deliberately misspelling people's names.

And what on earth would be the point in contacting your MP after the event. You seem to have a good relationship with him - surely you should be determining now who you would like to be elected, and therefore who needs to be in the final two, and be lobbying your MP to get him to support that person in the MPs ballot.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #479 on: July 11, 2022, 09:46:59 AM »
If Richie Sumak - I'm not going to bother to look up the spelling of his name because if he's on the list then the other one is better for a start
Can you please explain what you have against Rishi Sunak please - I'd have thought he'd be the nearest person to continuity Boris, given that he was chancellor in the Boris government.

Clearly you aren't enamoured by him, but can you explain why please.

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #480 on: July 11, 2022, 09:54:52 AM »
I can't remember where we'd got to on the Susan Doris party status. Are you still a member? I know you were in 2019 as you told us you supported Hunt. If you are a member and will therefore have a vote I trust you will take the greatest care to find out about the candidates and cast your vote wisely. It is a weird (and deeply unsatisfactory) anomaly of our system of government that a PM can be chosen by less than 200,000 people from a population of 60 million. I actually think it is more democratic to have a new PM selected by their MPs only as at least those MPs can claim cumulative support of millions via a democratic process. Party members - not so much.
I'm reminded of the meeting of trade union leaders at TUC headquarters in the days of the block vote. Afterwards, they repaired to a pub, and the general secretary took people's orders by a show of hands, then said "right - that's five million bitters, three and a half million whiskys, four million ciders...".
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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #481 on: July 11, 2022, 12:26:09 PM »


And the points made about the news media finding that the cakes and drink vasty outweigh the good things is something that has annoyed me from the start of all the let's-pull-down-the-PM

Let's be clear. The issue is not that Boris went to a party. That would be a relatively minor thing.

The issue is that he lied about it in parliament. There's no way that lying to the elected representatives of the people of the UK is a small thing. It's always a big deal. He was the leader of this country but he proved himself to be completely untrustworthy.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #482 on: July 11, 2022, 12:39:48 PM »
Let's be clear. The issue is not that Boris went to a party. That would be a relatively minor thing.

The issue is that he lied about it in parliament. There's no way that lying to the elected representatives of the people of the UK is a small thing. It's always a big deal. He was the leader of this country but he proved himself to be completely untrustworthy.
That is one of the issues. The other is the rank hypocrisy - here was a PM standing at a lectern day after day at the press conferences telling the public that they must obey the rules and then headed off to knowingly break them himself. One rule for him, another rule for the little people.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #483 on: July 11, 2022, 01:29:04 PM »
Well, my goodness me, there have been very few occasions when I have thought to myself, well said' after reading one of your posts!! However, on this occasion I listened to this one before cursoring back to see who the author was and was surprised! :)

And the points made about the news media finding that the cakes and drink vasty outweigh the good things is something that has annoyed me from the start of all the let's-pull-down-the-PM, because it's what they do to anyone with a high profile, regardless of the fact that there is no-one with the personality strong enoughneeded to replace him. All the lefty, Labour, Scottish Indepenndece etc supporters will, as you will have noticed from responses to my posts!, see things from a narrow perspective. Yes, he made a lot of mistakes, but you can be sure that as soon as another leader is chosen, those journalists will be probing through their past to find every little mistake they have ever made .

Ah well, the choice of two which will be for the choice for Party members to vote for will b interesting  - I hope!

ETA: (Second try  - must have pressed the wrong key and it disappeared) I have now read the intervening posts and as predictable as I suppose mine is! I forgot to say that the thought of Nadine Dorries getting anywhere near the top of the list of 11 candidates makes me shudder. That 11 are all, in my opinion, pale grey shadows of leaders. That Tugan-something is possible, I suppose, but I don't think I'll bother to look him up.
Susan

You seem to be saying you hold Johnson to less rigorous standards because you like his personality. I have never fathomed his particular charm but each to their own - you are of course entitled to like whoever you like. I can see how the lack of detail in his speeches - often because he has not bothered to do his homework or read the in-depth cabinet papers or briefs - allows you to project all kinds of imagined competencies on him. It's somewhat like religious people in relation to their particular version of an unseen, immaterial god - you project attributes to Johnson based on blind faith that you wish were true rather than based on any facts or evidence.

Johnson can be an entertaining debater but a Cabinet Minister or PM needs to have a bit more substance than a flair for debating. And his debating skills towards the end seemed to diminish to just telling lies and trying to bluster his way out when his lies were exposed and when that didn't work apologising over and over again for each cock-up or lack of accurate recollection or misleading statement.

Your responses on this thread have lacked even less detail or facts to support your opinions than Boris Johnson's own speeches. Even if we just look at your point about cakes and drinks - surely it's worrying if a country's leader does not have at least the minimum levels of competence required to think a few steps ahead e.g. to how it would look if he was seen to be indulging in brithday and garden parties when voters could not hold the hand of dying loved ones or comfort grieving relatives because of the rules he and his government imposed on their electorate? Even the recently bereaved Queen had the presence of mind and was competent enough at her job to figure out that the optics of grieving alone for her husband was a better look than asking for special treatment, just because she is the Head of State.

Even a 12 year old would be able to predict that leaks of emails, photos, videos, CCTV, memos etc happen with depressing regularity and that the press would publish the story and add their spin on it. My view is that someone who is too incompetent to appreciate the likelihood of the information being leaked or the political fall-out from the leak and how it would affect his political standing is not someone who inspires any kind of confidence in their ability as a strategist or leader. Whatever good he was doing in relation to Ukraine through his public support - and here his charismatic persona probably was as helpful as any weapons he sent to Ukraine - he is clearly not someone who can be relied on not to trip over his own feet and balls it up in the not too distant future.

As for his strong personality, the only thing I can think of is that Johnson badly over-estimated the ability of his personal charm or charisma to get him out of scrapes caused by his lack of due diligence, attention to detail and professional competence. It appears that he thought that running the country and uniting as a leader sufficient number of the electorate and his MPs could be achieved by personality alone, as though it was some kind of reality tv show of photo-opps to be churned out for the entertainment of the masses rather than something that involved serious, committed, organised work. His personality seemed to consist of his mouth moving and saying the right words about getting serious work done but his actual actions meant he and his Ministers had to keep pausing to waste precious time apologising time and time again for Johnson's weaknesses and failings rather than dealing with the important issues a competent leader should be dealing with. I can understand why his MPs had enough of the farce this had become as his "strong personality" was insufficient for people to overlook his numerous other serious failings.

I suggest Johnson just moves on to the next stage, for which he does actually have the requisite competencies, and where his repeated gaffes and lack of judgement will actually help rather than hinder him by generating publicity. He should just get a publishing deal for him to churn out some entertaining books about his experiences and make entertaining TV programs or go on chat-shows or do after-dinner speeches. I'm sure there is a market for that amongst the public. He will probably make more than enough money to support his careless habit of collecting ex-wives and offspring by various girlfriends and also buy some property for him to move into.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 01:43:38 PM by Violent Gabriella »
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SusanDoris

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #484 on: July 12, 2022, 06:00:10 PM »
I have read all yesterday's posts and thought I would make an effort to respond, so I copied and pasted contents on to a blank doc. However, I just have not had the energy today. Yesterday, I spent seven hours at Bournemouth Hospital waiting before and being check before being allowed home after lumpectomy under a local anaesthetic. Absolutely no problems with that and everyone was lovely, but today ..... no energy.

And I have been thinking: No, I am not going to explain all the details of why and why not I will do this or that rgarding the candidates. In the end, I shall have a choice of two and then, yes, I will do  a lot more checking of those two.

Interestingly enough, the Surgeon and I were having a conversation about the candidates during the operation!!
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Gordon

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #485 on: July 12, 2022, 06:27:25 PM »
I have read all yesterday's posts and thought I would make an effort to respond, so I copied and pasted contents on to a blank doc. However, I just have not had the energy today. Yesterday, I spent seven hours at Bournemouth Hospital waiting before and being check before being allowed home after lumpectomy under a local anaesthetic. Absolutely no problems with that and everyone was lovely, but today ..... no energy.

And I have been thinking: No, I am not going to explain all the details of why and why not I will do this or that rgarding the candidates. In the end, I shall have a choice of two and then, yes, I will do  a lot more checking of those two.

Interestingly enough, the Surgeon and I were having a conversation about the candidates during the operation!!

The most important thing, Susan, is that you look after yourself and recover your energy - slowly and as directed by the quacks.

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #486 on: July 12, 2022, 06:46:58 PM »
I have read all yesterday's posts and thought I would make an effort to respond, so I copied and pasted contents on to a blank doc. However, I just have not had the energy today. Yesterday, I spent seven hours at Bournemouth Hospital waiting before and being check before being allowed home after lumpectomy under a local anaesthetic. Absolutely no problems with that and everyone was lovely, but today ..... no energy. And I have been thinking: No, I am not going to explain all the details of why and why not I will do this or that rgarding the candidates. In the end, I shall have a choice of two and then, yes, I will do  a lot more checking of those two. Interestingly enough, the Surgeon and I were having a conversation about the candidates during the operation!!
Hope things are OK, Susan. Take it easy.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #487 on: July 13, 2022, 08:16:39 AM »
Well, my goodness me, there have been very few occasions when I have thought to myself, well said' after reading one of your posts!! However, on this occasion I listened to this one before cursoring back to see who the author was and was surprised! :)

And the points made about the news media finding that the cakes and drink vasty outweigh the good things is something that has annoyed me from the start of all the let's-pull-down-the-PM, because it's what they do to anyone with a high profile, regardless of the fact that there is no-one with the personality strong enoughneeded to replace him. All the lefty, Labour, Scottish Indepenndece etc supporters will, as you will have noticed from responses to my posts!, see things from a narrow perspective. Yes, he made a lot of mistakes, but you can be sure that as soon as another leader is chosen, those journalists will be probing through their past to find every little mistake they have ever made .

Glad to see that there is something we can agree on Susan  :)
In this we appear to be in a tiny minority on this forum, but I know of many other people who are appalled at the way our democratically elected leader has been ousted from office over faults which are trivial in comparison those of other prominent leaders who continue to remain in office unchallenged.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #488 on: July 13, 2022, 08:38:30 AM »
... our democratically elected leader has been ousted from office over faults which are trivial in comparison those of other prominent leaders ...
In what way are the following trivial:

1. Breaking the law (the first sitting PM ever to have been found to have done so).
2. Standing up at regular press conferences and telling the public that they have to obey laws that he, himself was breaking.
3. Lying to Parliament and to the British public, over (but not limited to) the parties in number 10, claiming they never happened, that no rules were broken etc etc.

Any one of those should be an automatic resigning offence.

And your claim of 'democratically elected leader' shows you really do not understands our parliamentary democratic system. Our PM is not a president, he or she does not receive a personal electoral mandate. He or she is the selected leader of the party (or combination of parties) that commands a majority of MPs. And if those MPs lose confidence in that PM he or she has to go - that's our system. Although I suspect I and others would be more than happy for there to be a general election right now (which seems to be the implication of your 'democratically elected leader' claim, but that cannot happen in our system unless the sitting PM calls for one or MPs vote in favour of a VONC in the Government.

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #489 on: July 13, 2022, 08:55:12 AM »
                        our democratically elected leader

The only people who have had any connection with "democracy" in establishing Alexander Johnson as Prime Minister and First Lord of the Treasury have been members of the elctorate in the constituency of Uxbridge. 

By convention, the monarch appoints the leader of the political party with the largest number of seats in the House of Commons. It is quite possible that this will involve fewer than half of the total number of elected MPs, many of whom themselves have been elected by tribal loyalty rather than any real political philosophy
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Gordon

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #490 on: July 13, 2022, 09:13:43 AM »
Glad to see that there is something we can agree on Susan  :)
In this we appear to be in a tiny minority on this forum, but I know of many other people who are appalled at the way our democratically elected leader has been ousted from office over faults which are trivial in comparison those of other prominent leaders who continue to remain in office unchallenged.

Alan

He is a lying, narcissistic Tory fuckwit - we are well rid: now we need to get rid of his party from government and, hopefully, Scotland will in due course be free from being subjected to another Tory government that we Scots have largely rejected.

Johnson, in particular, is a cancer on UK politics.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #491 on: July 13, 2022, 09:23:40 AM »
Alan

He is a lying, narcissistic Tory fuckwit - we are well rid: now we need to get rid of his party from government and, hopefully, Scotland will in due course be free from being subjected to another Tory government that we Scots have largely rejected.

Johnson, in particular, is a cancer on UK politics.
We may well be rid of Johnson as PM (or will be soon) but the challenge is his legacy, the lowering of the bar for how we expect our leaders to act. Johnson's conduct in office has been so far below that of any other PM I can remember that perhaps two scenarios will play out.

1. We will revert to type, whereby there is an unwritten but expected level of conduct of a PM, and future PMs will revert to that norm with recognition that Johnson was an appalling stain on our constitutional expectations, but an exception.

2. That Johnson-like conduct becomes baked in - doesn't matter if you break the law, Johnson did and didn't resign, doesn't matter if you lie to parliament, Johnson did and wasn't forced to resign (noting that neither of these things was the direct cause of his downfall).

Let's hope the future is the former rather than the latter. And for those Johnson lovers (SD/AB, take a bow) remember that if you accept this kind of conduce from someone you like you cannot criticise if there is a Corbyn-like PM in the future breaking the law and lying to parliament but refusing to resign because of the precedent set by Johnson. So when defending Johnson, be very, very careful what you wish for.

SteveH

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #492 on: July 13, 2022, 09:32:23 AM »
Glad to see that there is something we can agree on Susan  :)
In this we appear to be in a tiny minority on this forum, but I know of many other people who are appalled at the way our democratically elected leader has been ousted from office over faults which are trivial in comparison those of other prominent leaders who continue to remain in office unchallenged.
He's a democratically-elected MP, but we don't directly elect the PM as such; he or she is simply the leader of the governing party, and how they become leader is a matter for the party concerned. If the leader breaks the law and then lies about it, it seems appropriate to me that they should resign.
What are the faults of other leaders who remain in office, and which other leaders?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 10:10:21 AM by Steve H »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #493 on: July 13, 2022, 09:43:54 AM »
If the leader breaks the law and then lies about it, it seems appropriate to me that they should resign.
Absolutely - and even democracy cannot sit above the law (for obvious reasons) - so even if someone is democratically elected that doesn't mean they aren't subject to the law and shouldn't mean that they can break the law with impunity and expect not to be removed from office.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #494 on: July 13, 2022, 10:07:46 AM »
Known liar lied to Parliament.

https://youtu.be/3ZiUb6gPDxs

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #495 on: July 13, 2022, 10:19:39 AM »
Known liar lied to Parliament.

https://youtu.be/3ZiUb6gPDxs
Not as if we weren't warned.

And on the laziness, lack of grip, poor attention to detail because he couldn't be bothered to read briefing papers, well that was all well known too. Just ask around in the GLA about his time as Mayor.

So there have been people all along saying that he is a lazy, dishonest, incompetent, entitled, idiot (proved to be the case) - yet the repost came back that this was all a super-clever front and behind that deshevelled persona was a super-intelligent inspirational visionary. How wrong those people were - the worst PM in living memory (well perhaps that accolade goes to his old school chum)was hiding in plain sight.

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #496 on: July 13, 2022, 10:25:29 AM »
Not as if we weren't warned.

And on the laziness, lack of grip, poor attention to detail because he couldn't be bothered to read briefing papers, well that was all well known too. Just ask around in the GLA about his time as Mayor.

So there have been people all along saying that he is a lazy, dishonest, incompetent, entitled, idiot (proved to be the case) - yet the repost came back that this was all a super-clever front and behind that deshevelled persona was a super-intelligent inspirational visionary. How wrong those people were - the worst PM in living memory (well perhaps that accolade goes to his old school chum)was hiding in plain sight.

And yet despite this wealth of evidence some people are willing to defend him vehemently.

I know that many of us (I include myself) are loyal to, and likely to take the side of, the political party we support. Still, this near deification of Johnson in some quarters is unfathomable and flies in the face of so much that we know of the man and his deficiencies.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 10:51:29 AM by Trentvoyager »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #497 on: July 13, 2022, 10:40:58 AM »
And yet despite this wealth of evidence some people are willing to defend him vehemently.

I know that many of us (I include myself) are loyal too, and likely to take the side of, the political party we support. Still, this near deification of Johnson in some quarters is unfathomable and flies in the face of so much that we know of the man and his deficiencies.
I guess some people aren't prepared to admit they were wrong.

And I think this is a big issue for Hunt - of the candidates available, he is surely the best combination of experience but not being tarred by being at the scene of the Johnson car-wreck. Yet he seems to be gaining no traction, and one argument I've heard is that MPs and members cannot face supporting Hunt as it would be an admission that they got it wrong last time, preferring Johnson over Hunt in the final contest.

I find SD's attitude bewildering however - she claims to have no interest, yet is a Tory member and ex-activist. Continually defends Johnson, albeit is a rather irritating round-the-houses kind of manner (no-one better, well my MP thinks he's OK etc). Yet she is clear that she voted for Hunt rather than Johnson last time - easy out "not my fault, don't blame me for the lying lier, I did what I could to get the other guy voted in as PM" - yet she doesn't do this.

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #498 on: July 13, 2022, 11:33:13 AM »

When presented with a clown most people relax in the expectation of some amusement, overlooking any number of flaws - real or feigned. Only a few react with horror and fear, seeing something malicious behind the disguise.

BJ is a clown of the evil type. It is not his personal flaws or corruption and incompetency that are the problem but that he has also helped unfetter a pack of corrupt individuals who care for nothing except their own personal gain or the cost to the country and rest of the world.
     
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #499 on: July 13, 2022, 12:00:58 PM »
When presented with a clown most people relax in the expectation of some amusement, overlooking any number of flaws - real or feigned. Only a few react with horror and fear, seeing something malicious behind the disguise.

BJ is a clown of the evil type. It is not his personal flaws or corruption and incompetency that are the problem but that he has also helped unfetter a pack of corrupt individuals who care for nothing except their own personal gain or the cost to the country and rest of the world.
   
I think this is a clear manifestation of the entitled elite (see both Cameron and Johnson). If when you look at the photos on the school wall, your parents and their relatives and friends and you see people who held the very top jobs, earned the most money, dined with all of the other elites, met PMs and Presidents around the world, then your whole world view and aspirational drive becomes distorted. If you want to do better than your parent and your chums (and if you are ambitious let's face it many do) then it isn't enough to get to university (as may be the case for someone first generation to go to university), it isn't enough to become a doctor or a teacher. Nope you've got to outdo the chum who became Foreign Secretary, or the Uncle who is uber-uber rich. So in order to meet aspirations you have to go one better, get a position higher than Foreign Secretary, be even richer.

And this is the real challenge at the top. For most of us, we kind of aspire to ensure that our children do a little better than we did, and for this to carry on over several generations - that is certainly the world of my family, and probably of the vast majority of people in the UK. But if you are already at the very top, all you can aspire to is that your kids don't do less well, and that creates a defensiveness and a need to close ranks with the rest of the establishment elite as it is in the interests of you all to use your power and infuence to keep yourselves at the top, and to keep your kids at the top.