Author Topic: Should he stay or should he go?  (Read 23907 times)

Gordon

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #50 on: January 17, 2022, 07:48:07 AM »
That's all very well, but again, it's wishful thinking and just words. The situation is not  going to change just like that. If no-one can  come up with a name for an actual person who would be prepared to step forward to be voted for and who would, in fact, actually get voted for, is the immediate problem. And that is the reason, I think, that boris will be there for a while longer.

But those voting are, in this case, Tory MPs - and having previously voted for 'Boris', and looking at the likely candidates to replace him, I doubt that we can any confidence in any Tory replacement: though someone who is able to at least tell the truth would be an improvement.

I can't see any immediate prospect of this government falling in the short term, but we can hope it does, and that enough of the electorate in England (which is where the Tory support is mainly located) will see what they have done and vote differently next time.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2022, 08:35:37 AM »
That's all very well, but again, it's wishful thinking and just words. The situation is not  going to change just like that. If no-one can  come up with a name for an actual person who would be prepared to step forward to be voted for and who would, in fact, actually get voted for, is the immediate problem. And that is the reason, I think, that boris will be there for a while longer.
And yet that means you support a lying racist incompetent racist corrupt thug as PM.

Outrider

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2022, 08:43:08 AM »
'Boris' is the primary cause of the chaos, and while he remains there will be no stability - how the Tory party ever thought he would not be chaotic beats me, given his history.

I'm not sure that he is - he's certainly part of the problem, but the fact that he can be elected as an MP means there's a problem with a considerable portion of the electorate in his constituency; that he can be elected leader of the Tory part is indicative of a shortfall of some sort amongst those party members, and that he can be in place as the leader and still lead the Conservative party to  an electoral victory is indicative of the nature of Britain at the moment. That he is where is he is - sociopathically dishonest cockwomble as he is - is a symptom as much as a cause.

O.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2022, 08:54:34 AM »
I'm not sure that he is - he's certainly part of the problem, but the fact that he can be elected as an MP means there's a problem with a considerable portion of the electorate in his constituency; that he can be elected leader of the Tory part is indicative of a shortfall of some sort amongst those party members, and that he can be in place as the leader and still lead the Conservative party to  an electoral victory is indicative of the nature of Britain at the moment. That he is where is he is - sociopathically dishonest cockwomble as he is - is a symptom as much as a cause.

O.
The rancid stink from No10 where people wheel a suitcase of booze up to the door the night and morning before Philip's funeral are down to the lead given by the lying racist sexist incompetent corrupt thug. Much as I might disagree with Thatcher - it would not have happened then .

Gordon

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #54 on: January 17, 2022, 09:25:23 AM »
I'm not sure that he is - he's certainly part of the problem, but the fact that he can be elected as an MP means there's a problem with a considerable portion of the electorate in his constituency; that he can be elected leader of the Tory part is indicative of a shortfall of some sort amongst those party members, and that he can be in place as the leader and still lead the Conservative party to  an electoral victory is indicative of the nature of Britain at the moment. That he is where is he is - sociopathically dishonest cockwomble as he is - is a symptom as much as a cause.

O.

I suspect it is more the case of the electorate in England rather than Britain: the electorate here in Scotland didn't support either Brexit or a Tory UK government. 

Aruntraveller

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #55 on: January 17, 2022, 09:51:36 AM »
Quote
and that he can be in place as the leader and still lead the Conservative party to  an electoral victory is indicative of the nature of Britain at the moment.

Is it though?

As I noted before even in England the Tories only achieved 47.2% of the popular vote. And yet they get an 80 seat majority.

This in my mind is where the problem lies. We are in this position because of an electoral system that distorts the representation given to the voters.

We have a system that delivers a whacking majority to a minority party. This is profoundly undemocratic and works against the interests of the voters and I would suggest the interests of the country/UK as a whole.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2022, 09:57:33 AM »
That's all very well, but again, it's wishful thinking and just words. The situation is not  going to change just like that. If no-one can  come up with a name for an actual person who would be prepared to step forward to be voted for and who would, in fact, actually get voted for, is the immediate problem. And that is the reason, I think, that boris will be there for a while longer.
So you will continue to cheer lead for a lying racist incompetent sexist corrupt thug because the Tory party has nothing better to offer.

SusanDoris

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2022, 10:25:35 AM »
So you will continue to cheer lead for a lying racist incompetent sexist corrupt thug because the Tory party has nothing better to offer.
Andn nor have you!!  I do not cheer for anybody. I'm a practical person and I see the position reasonaly clearly I think. I am not going to vote for the Labour or any other party. First, because locally, there is no support for him/her , then because although the Tories might have had 47% of vote, the other 53% were definitely not all Labour supporters, the Labour Party would not hold together, in my opinion, those who produced the majority for Brexit did not think things through  as well as they should have done and unfortunately, that is a closed door now, and however daft and irresponsible the drinks and parties behaviour of the Gove can be frowned on, they still have a huge hold on Government. And I'll probably not be here for the next election anyway!
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Outrider

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2022, 10:52:39 AM »
I suspect it is more the case of the electorate in England rather than Britain: the electorate here in Scotland didn't support either Brexit or a Tory UK government.

The nature of the UK's parliamentary system means that there are any number of regions that can point to their own inclinations differing with the parliamentary majority, but we're all (neck-deep) in this together. Another iteration of the same very valid argument for proportional representation of one form or another that keeps never quite coming to the fore.

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Outrider

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2022, 10:57:32 AM »
Is it though?

As I noted before even in England the Tories only achieved 47.2% of the popular vote. And yet they get an 80 seat majority.

That 47.2%, whilst not an outright majority, still represents the single largest block of votes; that it's exacerbated by the nature of our electoral system doesn't change the reality that over 47% of  the population still though that group was the best choice to run the country.

Quote
This in my mind is where the problem lies. We are in this position because of an electoral system that distorts the representation given to the voters.

It exaggerates the small margins to give parliament effective executive power and avoid legislative stagnation, but it also tends toward extremism, and lends itself to two-party stultification.

Quote
We have a system that delivers a whacking majority to a minority party. This is profoundly undemocratic and works against the interests of the voters and I would suggest the interests of the country/UK as a whole.

Which is why the Tory party effectively gutted the Lib Dem demand for a vote on PR during the coalition - because when they're in the majority it serves them well, and when they're not it still gives them a shot at power anyway.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

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SteveH

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2022, 11:08:14 AM »
Bearing in mind that we're lumbered with the Tories for the next few years, and putting aside cynical questions of which Tory as PM would be most likely to lead to a Labour victory at the next election, I'd say that either Liz Truss or Rishi Sunak should replace Johnson. Both seem sensible ans capable.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Nearly Sane

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2022, 11:21:32 AM »
Andn nor have you!!  I do not cheer for anybody. I'm a practical person and I see the position reasonaly clearly I think. I am not going to vote for the Labour or any other party. First, because locally, there is no support for him/her , then because although the Tories might have had 47% of vote, the other 53% were definitely not all Labour supporters, the Labour Party would not hold together, in my opinion, those who produced the majority for Brexit did not think things through  as well as they should have done and unfortunately, that is a closed door now, and however daft and irresponsible the drinks and parties behaviour of the Gove can be frowned on, they still have a huge hold on Government. And I'll probably not be here for the next election anyway!
There are pieces of lint in my jacket that have more integrity than Johnson. You support a lying racist sexist incimpetent corrupt thug.

Udayana

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2022, 11:50:04 AM »
Bearing in mind that we're lumbered with the Tories for the next few years, and putting aside cynical questions of which Tory as PM would be most likely to lead to a Labour victory at the next election, I'd say that either Liz Truss or Rishi Sunak should replace Johnson. Both seem sensible ans capable.

Indeed. The Tories have a perfectly adequate system for electing an honest, capable and responsible leader.

Far be it from me to say who they should choose, but if they continue with Johnson they will crash their own party, let alone the country.
 
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Nearly Sane

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2022, 11:53:04 AM »
That 47.2%, whilst not an outright majority, still represents the single largest block of votes; that it's exacerbated by the nature of our electoral system doesn't change the reality that over 47% of  the population still though that group was the best choice to run the country.

It exaggerates the small margins to give parliament effective executive power and avoid legislative stagnation, but it also tends toward extremism, and lends itself to two-party stultification.

Which is why the Tory party effectively gutted the Lib Dem demand for a vote on PR during the coalition - because when they're in the majority it serves them well, and when they're not it still gives them a shot at power anyway.

O.
Just to point out that that 47% is the figure for England not the UK.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2022, 12:09:14 PM by Nearly Sane »

Aruntraveller

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2022, 12:00:39 PM »
Word of the day is ‘sparple’ (14th century): to deflect unwanted attention from one thing by making a big deal of another.

Credit: Susie Dent.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2022, 12:10:56 PM »
Farrow & Ball have released a new colour: Sue Gray.

However it is a very light shade, which means that if spread too thinly it looks like whitewash.

SteveH

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2022, 12:23:34 PM »
There are pieces of lint in my jacket that have more integrity than Johnson. You support a lying racist sexist incimpetent corrupt thug.
Repeating the same list of adjectives ad nauseam isn't going to change anyone's mind; it's just tiresome and immature.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

SteveH

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2022, 12:25:02 PM »
Farrow & Ball have released a new colour: Sue Gray.

However it is a very light shade, which means that if spread too thinly it looks like whitewash.
This, otoh, is an amusing post: more like this, and fewer of the other kind, please.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2022, 03:24:30 PM »
Alastair Campbell thinks we should stop calling him "Boris", as it plays right into his hands. He's not a friendly, somewhat dishevelled bloke; he's a dangerous, corrupt psychopath.

That is just ridiculous.


I have just quickly skimmed through all the responses. I think that ypu, Susan, and other respondents have missed the point.

His name is not "Boris". His family, his friends, his wives (and whoever he is not wearing a condom with) all call him "Al" - short for Alexander. "Boris" is one of his given names, as is "de Pfeffel". Together with staged buffoonnery, general untidyness and mild unpredictability he has used the name (which many people associate with mild menace) as a brand. A significant proportion of the electorate voted for the brand not the real - rather unscrupulous Alexander Johnson.

Alistair Campbell is suggesting that we should rip away the pretence and start viewing the man not the brand.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2022, 12:25:13 PM »
Once the idiots in the Conservative party elected the "buffoon brand" for their leader, it just confirmed that the Tories have no integrity, if we did not already know that from many of their immigration policies. But then again Blair showed the Labour party also has no integrity. The Tories seemed to have followed the same game-plan as the delegates in GOP who chose Trump. Both Trump and the buffoon have a certain mass appeal because they are not averse to taking advantage of culture wars to appeal to the voters.

I think culture, beliefs and values are what many people are voting on now - it all seems to have become very emotion-based decision-making, regardless of education or intelligence. The majority of people will probably vote based on self-interest including me. That self-interest may include economic considerations (tax rates and government financial mismanagement) but also certain core principles and values they believe in and therefore will want to see upheld such as freedom of speech and ideas and debate. So people may vote for the party that is most likely to protect the core values they see as important, even where there is clear evidence of wrongdoing and deceit in other areas. 

Which leads me unfortunately to the observation that I have voted for my Labour MP in the past elections because she is a good MP and I knew there was little chance of Labour actually winning a General Election under Corbyn and the UK finances being run under hard-left socialist principles. But now, while the Tories are the only party where the buffoon leadership is not opposed to pushing back against the transgender lobby (they scrapped GRA reforms), I guess I may well be voting for a party led by an immoral buffoon - hopefully they will have replaced him by the time the next election rolls round but if they haven't I will have to make a decision at that point as to whether I will vote Tory in the next election if the other parties are still upholding trans ideology to the point where MPs cannot even debate the issue. Restrictions to free speech to this extent, is a far more worrying prospect to me than Boris.

Marsha de Cordova, the Labour MP for Battersea who was the Shadow Women and Equalities Secretary, but had to resign from that role after being harassed online for sharing an article arguing for the retention of women’s sex-based rights. Rosie Duffield was criticised by Keir Starmer and Angela Rayner, who seem to have prioritised trans people's feelings over women's rights to privacy and security.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/09/17/ed-davey-boris-johnson-trans-rights/

So I guess I may well see Tory "racism", rule-breaking, financial self-interest and a complete lack of integrity as lower priority issues than the issue of free speech, especially when it comes to discussing protection of women's sex-based rights.

Regarding racism, Asian and black communities are filled with racists so I would probably have more sympathy if Asian and black people get their own house in order while preaching to white people about white privilege, as from where I am standing it looks like many BAME people just play the victim card and take it as a free pass to let themselves off the hook for all the racism they spew out.


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Aruntraveller

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2022, 12:34:30 PM »
Quote
Restrictions to free speech to this extent, is a far more worrying prospect to me than Boris.

Err......you have been following the PCSC bill proposed by MS Patel and supported by Johnson?

If you are worried about free speech on the basis of the transgender issue, I think you are perhaps missing a bigger picture. Not saying that the TG issue isn't worrying. I am saying the removal of the effective right to protest, and the law that will enable it is a much, much bigger one. For example, the women who protested after the murder by a policeman of Sarah Everard could have been prevented from protesting peacefully after her murder under the new law.

This is the part of the bill I am talking about:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/jt5802/jtselect/jtrights/331/33107.htm

NB Thankfully the Lords have seen the need to push back against the PCSC bill, but we are not out of the woods yet.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 12:46:48 PM by Trentvoyager »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2022, 01:22:59 PM »
Err......you have been following the PCSC bill proposed by MS Patel and supported by Johnson?

If you are worried about free speech on the basis of the transgender issue, I think you are perhaps missing a bigger picture. Not saying that the TG issue isn't worrying. I am saying the removal of the effective right to protest, and the law that will enable it is a much, much bigger one. For example, the women who protested after the murder by a policeman of Sarah Everard could have been prevented from protesting peacefully after her murder under the new law.

This is the part of the bill I am talking about:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/jt5802/jtselect/jtrights/331/33107.htm

NB Thankfully the Lords have seen the need to push back against the PCSC bill, but we are not out of the woods yet.
Good point  - you are right that the Tories are trying to use the law to shut down criticism, protest, and being held accountable for their actions - so yes we're screwed whoever we vote for.

The outcome of the Colston 4 trial seems to indicate that juries may ignore the letter of the law. Agree though that people will be subjected to a lot of stress an harassment while waiting for the trial. Of course if these issues do not go to a jury trial then we are at the mercy of the judiciary, who seem to have been trying to uphold the law. Which is why the Tories are trying to clip the wings of the judiciary by reforming the process of Judicial Review: https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/topics/human-rights/parliamentary-briefing-judicial-review-and-courts-bill-house-of-commons-second-reading   

But yes agree with you that Tories are not champions of free speech either:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/dec/15/uk-parliament-pushes-back-on-the-online-safety-bill

"Online Safety Bill: One of the most controversial parts of the draft bill was clause 11, which covered the duty of care that applied to adults: protecting them from legal but harmful content. This caused concern because under the draft bill not only would the culture secretary have a key role in defining such content – meaning Nadine Dorries would, at least technically, have a censorship role over what is acceptable speech online – but it also contained an amorphous threat against freedom of expression."
I identify as a Sword because I have abstract social constructs e.g. honour and patriotism. My preferred pronouns are "kill/ maim/ dismember"

Quite handy with weapons - available for hire to defeat money laundering crooks around the world.

“Forget safety. Live where you fear to live.” Rumi

SusanDoris

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2022, 03:41:52 PM »
VG and TV

Very interesting posts.
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Gordon

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2022, 09:12:14 PM »
John Crace takes aim - albeit the target is so easy to hit it is impossible to miss.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/18/even-under-the-mask-johnson-looked-like-someone-who-knew-the-game-was-up

Nearly Sane

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