Should he stay or should he go?

[SusanDoris]

I know you didn't vote for him in the ballot, but you voted for him at the GE (I know you'll now play semantics and say you voted for your local MP but it was, in the end, Johnson you voted for) and given his track record up until that point which was well documented by many and observable by the rest of us, it was entirely predictable we would end up here. The point is there are some in the Tory party who would be more suited to the job - none, save perhaps Sunak, who are in the cabinet, unfortunately. He wouldn't be my choice, but then as I'm sure you realise by now I wouldn't choose any Tory.

Perhaps we should go with Rees Mogg's suggestion and have a General Election. He was talking sense for once, even if it was only said to scare the Tory backbenchers into compliance.

No, you are wrong in your apparent interpretation of what I thought and felt when voting in last GE. I did not vote for Boris. I voted for my local MP because I know him, have found him to be a good local MP. Of course he, like all human beings, makes mistakes but that's okay. If, as a consequence, Boris is PM then that's not my fault nor was he my choice, but he won the vote and my MP did too.

[Aruntraveller]

No, you are wrong in your apparent interpretation of what I thought and felt when voting in last GE. I did not vote for Boris. I voted for my local MP because I know him, have found him to be a good local MP. Of course he, like all human beings, makes mistakes but that's okay. If, as a consequence, Boris is PM then that's not my fault nor was he my choice, but he won the vote and my MP did too.

As I said previously I knew you'd try and get around this with a certain amount of disingenuousness. Nobody who voted Conservative at the last election was under any illusion as to who the PM would be. Nobody, if they paid any attention to Mr Johnson's character and history would be under any illusion as to what they were getting. A liar, manipulator, violent bully, and racist.

Your vote helped put him there. Your vote has helped to get us where we are now.

[ProfessorDavey]

As I said previously I knew you'd try and get around this with a certain amount of disingenuousness. Nobody who voted Conservative at the last election was under any illusion as to who the PM would be. Nobody, if they paid any attention to Mr Johnson's character and history would be under any illusion as to what they were getting. A liar, manipulator, violent bully, and racist.

Your vote helped put him there. Your vote has helped to get us where we are now.

Absolutely - it is either unbelievably naive or deeply disingenuous to suggest that voting Tory in 2019 isn't in any way responsible for Johnson being PM. The notion of 'but my local MP is really good' is the classic apologist approach for someone to justify the unjustifiable - I have more respect for someone who is honest that they voted Tory because they preferred Johnson to Corbyn as PM.

[jeremyp]

As I said previously I knew you'd try and get around this with a certain amount of disingenuousness. Nobody who voted Conservative at the last election was under any illusion as to who the PM would be. Nobody, if they paid any attention to Mr Johnson's character and history would be under any illusion as to what they were getting. A liar, manipulator, violent bully, and racist.

Your vote helped put him there. Your vote has helped to get us where we are now.

Sorry but this modern trend of demonising people just because they voted for a Conservative has really got to stop. It's a destructive tactic.

The fact is that Susan voted for her local MP because she thinks he's a good MP. I don't know why you can't take that at face value.

[Aruntraveller]

Sorry but this modern trend of demonising people just because they voted for a Conservative has really got to stop. It's a destructive tactic.

The fact is that Susan voted for her local MP because she thinks he's a good MP. I don't know why you can't take that at face value.

In what way am I demonising her? I'm asking her to justify her vote. She wants to have it all ways. WE can't change leader because, well I haven't had an answer to that. I'm not responsible because I voted for my local candidate. Yet a general election is called so that a new government can be formed with clearly defined leaders. I don't understand your issue with me challenging her.

If you had been minded to vote Labour at the last election, who would have been uppermost in your mind. Your local candidate or Jeremy Corbyn.

Because I seem to recall you saying that you could not vote Labour because of said leader of the Labour party. Why do you think it is necessary for you to take into account the leader of a party and yet Susan Doris doesn't have to?

[Nearly Sane]

Sorry but this modern trend of demonising people just because they voted for a Conservative has really got to stop. It's a destructive tactic.

The fact is that Susan voted for her local MP because she thinks he's a good MP. I don't know why you can't take that at face value.

  Where is the 'demonising' in Trent's post?

[SusanDoris]

As I said previously I knew you'd try and get around this with a certain amount of disingenuousness. Nobody who voted Conservative at the last election was under any illusion as to who the PM would be. Nobody, if they paid any attention to Mr Johnson's character and history would be under any illusion as to what they were getting. A liar, manipulator, violent bully, and racist.

Your vote helped put him there. Your vote has helped to get us where we are now.

BCite one way in which you believe I am disingenuous.
No I did not have any illusions about Boris which is why I was annoyed that he was the leader of the party of which my local MP was a member. But I am a practical person who deals with the situation as it is not what would be an impossible ideal. I am most certainy not a person who tries to evade or get around questions.

If I had failed to vote or had put a cross against another of local candidates ... now that would have been under an illusion that my absence or voting for another would have made any difference.

[Aruntraveller]

If I had failed to vote or had put a cross against another of local candidates ... now that would have been under an illusion that my absence or voting for another would have made any difference.

As a practical person then surely if enough people of principle decided not to vote for your candidate, a message would have been sent that was much more powerful than your second-hand endorsement of the woeful third-hand PM we have in place at the moment.

As it is all your vote did was endorse somebody you yourself did not want as PM.

[Nearly Sane]

As a practical person then surely if enough people of principle decided not to vote for your candidate, a message would have been sent that was much more powerful than your second-hand endorsement of the woeful third-hand PM we have in place at the moment.

As it is all your vote did was endorse somebody you yourself did not want as PM.

That's surely though a problem built in to the system? In 2019, I voted SNP because Alison Thewliss is a good MP - if she wasn't I would have spoiled my ballot. Because the SNP are not a UK wide party in no sense would I have been voting for Blackford as PM but in England with FPTP and an effective 2 party state at the time, I don't see SusanDoris voting Tory as an endorsement of Johnson.

[Aruntraveller]

That's surely though a problem built in to the system? In 2019, I voted SNP because Alison Thewliss is a good MP - if she wasn't I would have spoiled my ballot. Because the SNP are not a UK wide party in no sense would I have been voting for Blackford as PM but in England with FPTP and an effective 2 party state at the time, I don't see SusanDoris voting Tory as an endorsement of Johnson.

Don't know. Rees-Smug says we have a presidential system now.

“It is my view that we have moved, for better or worse, to an essentially presidential system.

“Therefore the mandate is personal rather than entirely party, and that any prime minister would be very well advised to seek a fresh mandate.

Who am I to argue with such a great Tory thinker. My spelling may be off on that last word.

Seriously it is a curious system with as we have discussed elsewhere, very serious shortcomings, but I just don't think hiding behind an "I voted for my local candidate" cuts it anymore. If it ever did.

[Nearly Sane]

Don't know. Rees-Smug says we have a presidential system now.

Who am I to argue with such a great Tory thinker. My spelling may be off on that last word.

Seriously it is a curious system with as we have discussed elsewhere, very serious shortcomings, but I just don't think hiding behind an "I voted for my local candidate" cuts it anymore. If it ever did.

Rees-Mogg is an unprincipled nubbin of shite.

[jeremyp]

In what way am I demonising her?

In the last post you accused her of disingenuousness for a start. And I wasn't referring solely to Susan or you with my comment.

I'm asking her to justify her vote.

She already has. You just wouldn't accept the answer.

If you had been minded to vote Labour at the last election, who would have been uppermost in your mind. Your local candidate or Jeremy Corbyn.

In my case, the thing that was uppermost in my mind for the last two elections was Brexit. In both cases I voted for the candidate from the party that was closest to a Remain stance.

Because I seem to recall you saying that you could not vote Labour because of said leader of the Labour party. Why do you think it is necessary for you to take into account the leader of a party and yet Susan Doris doesn't have to?

That's my personal motivation. I don't seek to project my motivations onto anybody else. Just because I won't vote for a candidate in a party with a proven incompetent leader doesn't mean Susan has to do the same.

[Aruntraveller]

Fair enough on your viewpoint.

I'm still not clear on SD's.

SD was not in favour of Johnson, or IIRC Brexit and yet, whether she denies it with "I voted for my Local MP" she endorsed that very candidate and the process of Brexit.

PS you quoted my thread when you talked about demonising so I naturally assumed you meant me. If you didn't, thank you. If you did, you were wrong.

[jeremyp]

PS you quoted my thread when you talked about demonising so I naturally assumed you meant me.

I did mean you but I also meant everybody else who does it. I could have quoted any of several posts on this board but I wanted to respond to your treatment of Susan specifically, as well as make a general comment.

[Nearly Sane]

I did mean you but I also meant everybody else who does it. I could have quoted any of several posts on this board but I wanted to respond to your treatment of Susan specifically, as well as make a general comment.

Saying you think someone is being disingenuous is not 'demonising' them. You need a sense of proportion, and tgat's not me 'demonising' you.

[Aruntraveller]

I did mean you but I also meant everybody else who does it. I could have quoted any of several posts on this board but I wanted to respond to your treatment of Susan specifically, as well as make a general comment.

It seems disingenuous to me to claim that I was voting for my MP when YOU ARE AWARE that voting that way does in fact solidify the support for Johnson. You cannot say " I did not vote for Boris." as SD did and deny your vote counted towards his majority. Of course, it did. That is the disingenuousness I was speaking of. That is not demonising her.

Rather like Mr Johnson, SD appears to want to have her cake and eat it. "I voted Conservative but in no way did I vote for Mr Johnson."

Sophistry pure and simple.

[SusanDoris]

Fair enough on your viewpoint.

I'm still not clear on SD's.

Like JeremyP, I voted to remain in the EU but it didn't happen, so I could moan and wish things were different for ever and a day, but that is a useless and impractical way of looking at it!

SD was not in favour of Johnson, or IIRC Brexit and yet, whether she denies it with "I voted for my Local MP" she endorsed that very candidate and the process of Brexit.

No, I have never endorsed the process of Brexit and to assume I did is only in your imagination, I'm afraid! But we're stuck with it, so all I can hope for is that things turn out well for the younger generations.

Except when I was a child and dreamed of living in a fairyland - whilst knowing that that was a no-no! - I have never lived in a dream world where things would be just as everyone wanted it. Ah, well!

ETA: the definition of disingenuous is not mild, but realy quite scathing in a way.

[Aruntraveller]

No, I have never endorsed the process of Brexit and to assume I did is only in your imagination, I'm afraid! But we're stuck with it, so all I can hope for is that things turn out well for the younger generations.

Via your vote for your MP you endorsed Johnson and his oven-ready deal. It's actually living in a dreamland to deny that.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Rees-Mogg is an unprincipled nubbin of shite.

Pretty sure there are qualifications to being that and even surer that Mogg lacks even those.

I wonder if the shitstain is guilty of treason. A lawyer would know.

[Nearly Sane]

'I’m hearing that Boris has told Sue Gray to release her report one word at a time, once per day in the form of a Wordle puzzle.'

[Nearly Sane]

Pretty sure there are qualifications to being that and even surer that Mogg lacks even those.

I wonder if the shitstain is guilty of treason. A lawyer would know.

In what way do you think he might be guilty of treason?

[Aruntraveller]

Question for SD. IS your good constituency MP Desmond Swayne?

[SusanDoris]

Question for SD. IS your good constituency MP Desmond Swayne?

Yes, my local MP is indeed Sir Desmond Swayn. Now, I'm sure you are now snorting cynically!! And I'm sure you can think of dozens of things you disapprove of, but you don't live here!

[Aruntraveller]

No. I don't live there. I doubt I'd get much support from him:

 "the surest way to protect the public from AIDS is to outlaw homosexuality and lock up offenders"

Also, you were aware that he served you so well by being a member of Leave means Leave.

Way to go to choose someone who reflects your views.

[SusanDoris]

No. I don't live there. I doubt I'd get much support from him:

 "the surest way to protect the public from AIDS is to outlaw homosexuality and lock up offenders"

Also, you were aware that he served you so well by being a member of Leave means Leave.

Way to go to choose someone who reflects your views.

I do not expect him to reflect' my views. And, as I have said, people make mistakes.