Should he stay or should he go?

[Walt Zingmatilder]

In what way do you think he might be guilty of treason?

By declaring Johnson as president while in an office of the Crown perhaps. This is his second attempt overthrowing the
Constitution.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

Yes, my local MP is indeed Sir Desmond Swayn. Now, I'm sure you are now snorting cynically!! And I'm sure you can think of dozens of things you disapprove of, but you don't live here!

I didn't vote for Boris Johnson but voted for the local MP.
Who is?
Desmond Swayne
Ha ha ha.

[Nearly Sane]

By declaring Johnson as president while in an office of the Crown perhaps. This is his second attempt overthrowing the
Constitution.

He didn't. It isn't 

[Aruntraveller]

I do not expect him to reflect' my views. And, as I have said, people make mistakes.

Yes, but he makes a lot. And they are very unpleasant:

"In January 2016, the Labour Party unsuccessfully proposed an amendment in Parliament that would have required private landlords to make their homes "fit for human habitation". According to Parliament's register of interests, Swayne was one of 72 Conservative MPs who voted against the amendment who personally derived an income from renting out property. The Conservative Government had responded to the amendment that they believed homes should be fit for human habitation but did not want to pass the new law that would explicitly require it.

In a 2021 interview with anti-vaccination filmmaker Del Bigtree, Swayne said that Britain had become "a police state" and accused the government of attempting to enact "social control". When questioned about this by Sky News, Swayne stated that he had never heard of Bigtree.

In January 2021, Swayne was criticised by the Board of Deputies of British Jews for his 2020 appearance on The Richie Allen Show, which has been accused of anti-Semitism.


On 28 September 2019, Swayne remarked that "blackface" was an "entirely acceptable bit of fun". On 30 September, it was reported that he wore blackface while attending a Blues Brothers themed party, where he was pictured posing as James Brown.
"

One or two I'd expect, but this level of nastiness. Nah. Wouldn't vote for him. I wouldn't have thought you would have either.

But there we are, we live and learn.

[SusanDoris]

Yes, but he makes a lot. And they are very unpleasant:

"In January 2016, the Labour Party unsuccessfully proposed an amendment in Parliament that would have required private landlords to make their homes "fit for human habitation". According to Parliament's register of interests, Swayne was one of 72 Conservative MPs who voted against the amendment who personally derived an income from renting out property. The Conservative Government had responded to the amendment that they believed homes should be fit for human habitation but did not want to pass the new law that would explicitly require it.

In a 2021 interview with anti-vaccination filmmaker Del Bigtree, Swayne said that Britain had become "a police state" and accused the government of attempting to enact "social control". When questioned about this by Sky News, Swayne stated that he had never heard of Bigtree.

In January 2021, Swayne was criticised by the Board of Deputies of British Jews for his 2020 appearance on The Richie Allen Show, which has been accused of anti-Semitism.


On 28 September 2019, Swayne remarked that "blackface" was an "entirely acceptable bit of fun". On 30 September, it was reported that he wore blackface while attending a Blues Brothers themed party, where he was pictured posing as James Brown.
"

One or two I'd expect, but this level of nastiness. Nah. Wouldn't vote for him. I wouldn't have thought you would have either.

But there we are, we live and learn.

Okay - I have no intention of tracking back through all the things he has done over the years, but I am fairly sure there are a few things he has done right!

[Nearly Sane]

I do not expect him to reflect' my views. And, as I have said, people make mistakes.

But in voting for him and describing him as a good MP,  you are then giving support to the concept of locking Trentvoyager up for being gay.

[SusanDoris]

But in voting for him and describing him as a good MP,  you are then giving support to the concept of locking Trentvoyager up for being gay.

Well, that's rubbish of course.
If you can find a recent speech or e-mail or something of his which demonstrates that he still holds that view, I wil challenge him on it.

[Nearly Sane]

Well, that's rubbish of course.
If you can find a recent speech or e-mail or something of his which demonstrates that he still holds that view, I wil challenge him on it.

Can you provide evidence that he has said he was wrong to hold that view and an apology from him?

[SteveH]

Well, that's rubbish of course.
If you can find a recent speech or e-mail or something of his which demonstrates that he still holds that view, I wil challenge him on it.

That he ever held that view is bad enough, surely? Failing a Damascene conversion, I doubt that he's changed his view significantly.

[Aruntraveller]

Well, that's rubbish of course.
If you can find a recent speech or e-mail or something of his which demonstrates that he still holds that view, I wil challenge him on it.

It is possible for people to change. I don't doubt that.

No doubt the remarks he made about gay people were made back at the height of the Aids crisis in the 80's. So yes he could have changed. Although would you have said that then?

It's just that his pattern of behaviour really suggests otherwise. If he's indulging in, and defending black face as recently as 2019 then it points to a mindset that is, shall we say, less than enlightened.

[jeremyp]

In what way do you think he might be guilty of treason?

Well, looking at the definition of treason in the UK given in Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treason#United_Kingdom

"when a man doth compass or imagine the death of our lord the King, or of our lady his Queen or of their eldest son and heir"; (following the Succession to the Crown Act 2013 this is read to mean the eldest child and heir)

"if a man do violate the King's companion, or the King's eldest daughter unmarried, or the wife of the King's eldest son and heir";[36][37] (following the Succession to the Crown Act 2013 this is read to mean the eldest son if the heir)

"if a man do levy war against our lord the King in his realm, or be adherent to the King's enemies in his realm, giving to them aid and comfort in the realm, or elsewhere"

"if a man slea the chancellor, treasurer, or the King's justices of the one bench or the other, justices in eyre, or justices of assise, and all other justices assigned to hear and determine, being in their places, doing their offices".

"if any person or persons ... shall endeavour to deprive or hinder any person who shall be the next in succession to the crown ... from succeeding after the decease of her Majesty (whom God long preserve) to the imperial crown of this realm and the dominions and territories thereunto belonging".

I'd say the best chance is the second clause given that Johnson has never levied actual war against the UK, even though he has done untold damage.

[jeremyp]

That he ever held that view is bad enough, surely?

No. People change their views and they should not be penalised for doing so. This is part of the problem with politics today. Changing your mind is seen as a weakness. Past mistakes cannot be redeemed, apparently.

[SusanDoris]

Can you provide evidence that he has said he was wrong to hold that view and an apology from him?

No, it is beyond my technical ability to do that.

[Aruntraveller]

No, it is beyond my technical ability to do that.

I can help with that SusanDoris. He has offered a fairly full explanation on this issue which I accept:

https://www.advertiserandtimes.co.uk/news/forest-mp-swayne-shocked-by-his-own-comments-that-public-was-disgusted-by-homosexuality-9193427/

I'm not sure that you'll be all that pleased because his change of heart came about because of his religious views!

Me - I'll take it, one less person hating anyone for any reason is a good thing.

I don't withdraw any of the other accusations against him. The self interest of voting against housing standards stinks.

[SusanDoris]

I can help with that SusanDoris. He has offered a fairly full explanation on this issue which I accept:

https://www.advertiserandtimes.co.uk/news/forest-mp-swayne-shocked-by-his-own-comments-that-public-was-disgusted-by-homosexuality-9193427/

I'm not sure that you'll be all that pleased because his change of heart came about because of his religious views!

Me - I'll take it, one less person hating anyone for any reason is a good thing.

I don't withdraw any of the other accusations against him. The self interest of voting against housing standards stinks.

Thank you. Yes,  I think he is way behind the times still believing in God and having the faith he does. I am wel aware too that there are members of the NFWCA whose bigotry in terms of strict adherence to ancient antediluvial biblican religious beliefs is appalling but he's not going to change those beliefs amdhe is not afraid of owning to past mistakes. He's a flawed human being as most of us are.

[ProfessorDavey]

Thank you. Yes,  I think he is way behind the times still believing in God and having the faith he does. I am wel aware too that there are members of the NFWCA whose bigotry in terms of strict adherence to ancient antediluvial biblican religious beliefs is appalling but he's not going to change those beliefs amdhe is not afraid of owning to past mistakes. He's a flawed human being as most of us are.

Which rather begs the question Susan - what makes him so good as an MP that you appear to be prepared to vote for him despite the fact that doing so made it more likely that Boris would be PM. How do you square that circle - or perhaps it is that you preferred Boris as PM to the alternatives and therefore this notion that it is all about your local MP seems somewhat hollow.

[Aruntraveller]

Another Susie Dent word of the day:

Word of the day is ‘forwaked’ (14th century): weary from watching and waiting for something that never seems to materialise.

[Nearly Sane]

Tom Tugendhat saying he would stand

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/29/tory-mp-tom-tugendhat-becomes-first-to-throw-hat-into-leadership-ring-boris-johnson

[SteveH]

Tom Tugendhat saying he would stand

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jan/29/tory-mp-tom-tugendhat-becomes-first-to-throw-hat-into-leadership-ring-boris-johnson

Jolly good. It's about time we had another Tory Prime Minister with a sily name, to join Archibald Primrose, Bonar Law and Henry Campbell-Bannerman.

[Aruntraveller]

Erotic fiction......

[Gordon]

Yikes - that image is quite unsettling.

[Aruntraveller]

Yikes - that image is quite unsettling.

It is really quite disturbing.

[Aruntraveller]

So Michael Gove said that we need to show "Christian forgiveness" to this government.

They really are just taking the piss now.

[Walt Zingmatilder]

So Michael Gove said that we need to show "Christian forgiveness" to this government.

They really are just taking the piss now.

Johnson is unrepentant.

Welby wanted the same for the Bankers responsible for the 2008 Financial Disaster. Said Bankers were I think similarly unrepentant.

[ProfessorDavey]

So Michael Gove said that we need to show "Christian forgiveness" to this government.

I loath this notion of 'demanding' forgiveness from individuals who have been wronged. It is classic victim blaming and deflects from those who really should be under the spotlight - those who are the perpetrators of the wrongful act. It effectively implies that if a victim does not feel forgiveness towards the perpetrator that they are someone committing a wrongful act themselves.