Should he stay or should he go?

[Maeght]

She didn't say she supported him; she merely predicted what she thinks will happen - how accurately remains to be seen.

She did more than make a prediction.

[Maeght]

Why not he pays the fine and gets on with his job?

I don't think he should just pay a fine and be able to forget about it.

[SusanDoris]

So you think it's ok to lie and lie and lie?

You are ok with the country's reputation being trashed abroad? (Truss was shown up for the ignoramus she is in Russia) You are ok with the lies about Brexit? You are ok with Billions lost to fraud and none of it being traced? You are ok with lying to the Queen? You are ok with energy prices going through the roof and no protection for the weakest in society. France can do it for fuck's sake, so why can't we?

Instead, you'll just wring your hands and say we are anti-Borisers.  (incidentally as you didn't vote for Boris at his ascension to PM I think that means you are an anti-Boriser as well) and look how he treated anti-Borisers in parliament.

You'll say what can I do, even though you know all those things to be true?

Well, write to your MP. Ask for the resignation of Johnson on those grounds. IF enough do it, it will happen.

If you can bring forward one name for a candidate for the job who you think will (a) put him/herself forward, (b) get chosen, along with Boris, for the list of such MPs who will then be selected by MPs to put forward to members of the Party, and then (c) find a way of ensuring that the Party members vote will go the way of that person ... ... well, then I'll consider writing to my MP!

[SusanDoris]

She didn't say she supported him; she merely predicted what she thinks will happen - how accurately remains to be seen.

Thank you! Correct!

[SusanDoris]

I don't think he should just pay a fine and be able to forget about it.

All sorts of people think all sorts of things, but I look at things from a practical, realistic point of view. Please take note of my challenge to TV!

[Aruntraveller]

All sorts of people think all sorts of things, but I look at things from a practical, realistic point of view. Please take note of my challenge to TV!

Not a challenge. A cop out. Are you really telling me there are not more competent politicians in the Tory party than Johnson.

PS I'm not a member of the Conservative party. You are. I have no power in this matter. You do. Use it. Instead of defending the indefensible.

[Maeght]

All sorts of people think all sorts of things, but I look at things from a practical, realistic point of view. Please take note of my challenge to TV!

I've taken note but disagree. The options are poor but that shouldn't, in my view, mean Johnson can get away with just a fine and carry on regardless.

[SteveH]

She refers to people thinking more should happen for lying to parliament as 'anti-Borisers'. Thst's not just a prediction, is it?

She doesn't say that being anti-Boris is wrong.

[Anchorman]

 I note that the chookie is invading Scotland today, sans freezer. The 'ordinary public' will, as usual, be conspicuous by their absence...as will the leader of the Scottish Tories.

[Gordon]

If you can bring forward one name for a candidate for the job who you think will (a) put him/herself forward, (b) get chosen, along with Boris, for the list of such MPs who will then be selected by MPs to put forward to members of the Party, and then (c) find a way of ensuring that the Party members vote will go the way of that person ... ... well, then I'll consider writing to my MP!

It would be nice to think that there is a current Tory MP who would be at least half-way suitable: someone who is reasonably competent, prepared to actually do the homework required, isn't narcissistic, has a sense of responsibility to others and, crucially, understands the difference between truth and lies.

Surely there must be at least one Tory MP who meets these requirements.

[Nearly Sane]

She doesn't say that being anti-Boris is wrong.

It's clearly written to imply that. And it isn't just a prediction as you said.

[Nearly Sane]

It seems to me bizarre that someone who votes Tory wants non Tory voters to suggest who should be leader of the Tories, and PM, because the Tory voter can't think of any MP who is better than a PM who lies to parliamenr repeatedly, and has broken the law. Seems a much more damning indictment of the Tories than I could make.

[jeremyp]

It seems to me bizarre that someone who votes Tory wants non Tory voters to suggest who should be leader of the Tories, and PM, because the Tory voter can't think of any MP who is better than a PM who lies to parliamenr repeatedly, and has broken the law. Seems a much more damning indictment of the Tories than I could make.

Non Tory here.

I think pretty much anybody except Rees Mogg would bet an improvement. Granted, some would not be much of an improvement.

[ProfessorDavey]

If you can bring forward one name for a candidate for the job who you think will (a) put him/herself forward, (b) get chosen, along with Boris, for the list of such MPs who will then be selected by MPs to put forward to members of the Party, and then (c) find a way of ensuring that the Party members vote will go the way of that person ... ... well, then I'll consider writing to my MP!

Firstly - I don't think that's how the process works. If Boris loses a VONC or resigns then I don't think he is able to be considered by MPs to go forward in a new contest. So it wouldn't be Boris vs others, it would be others vs others.

But surely it isn't for non tories to determine who the leader of the Conservative party should be - that decision lies with tories, specifically members of the party. I might or might not consider Tory X to be preferable to Tory Y, but it isn't my decision. And as a non-tory I'd probably be pretty poor at identifying the kind of traits that appeal to tory members and tory voters. So for example I simply cannot fathom the notion that Liz Truss seems to be the preferred new leader if Boris goes. That seems crazy as to me she seems totally light-weight and at times embarrassing - but then she must push the right buttons for tory members as they rate her highly.

[SusanDoris]

Firstly - I don't think that's how the process works. If Boris loses a VONC or resigns then I don't think he is able to be considered by MPs to go forward in a new contest. So it wouldn't be Boris vs others, it would be others vs others.

Maybe, but do you really think that Boris will resign? I don't.

But surely it isn't for non tories to determine who the leader of the Conservative party should be - that decision lies with tories, specifically [members of the party.

Yes - I thought that was clear in my post.

I might or might not consider Tory X to be preferable to Tory Y, but it isn't my decision. And as a non-tory I'd probably be pretty poor at identifying the kind of traits that appeal to tory members and tory voters. So for example I simply cannot fathom the notion that Liz Truss seems to be the preferred new leader if Boris goes. That seems crazy as to me she seems totally light-weight and at times embarrassing - but then she must push the right buttons for tory members as they rate her highly.

I agree about Liz Truss and I don't think she'd stand a chance against Boris!

[jeremyp]

Firstly - I don't think that's how the process works. If Boris loses a VONC or resigns then I don't think he is able to be considered by MPs to go forward in a new contest.

Why not? In most cases, it would be a bit silly: if the leader wanted to stay on why would they resign? If the leader has lost a vote of no confidence where more than 50% of MPs had voted against them, it would be foolish to expect to do well in the subsequent leadership ballot. However, I say "most cases" because, in my life time one Conservative leader and PM resigned and then immediately got re-elected.

[ProfessorDavey]

Why not?

Because that is what the rules say.

In most cases, it would be a bit silly: if the leader wanted to stay on why would they resign?

I'm actually not clear what would happen if the PM actually resigned - effectively whether he'd be able to stand in a subsequent election.

If the leader has lost a vote of no confidence where more than 50% of MPs had voted against them, it would be foolish to expect to do well in the subsequent leadership ballot. However, I say "most cases" because, in my life time one Conservative leader and PM resigned and then immediately got re-elected.

If you are thinking about Major, then the rules have changed. If you lose a VONC you are barred from standing in the subsequent leadership contest.

[jeremyp]

Because that is what the rules say.

Do they?

[ProfessorDavey]

Do they?

Certainly on VONC - if you lose you cannot stand in the subsequent leadership election. Not quite so sure regarding resignation, but I think this was discussed on another MB a couple of weeks ago and I think the situation is that by resigning you are also automatically barred from the leadership election.

[jeremyp]

Certainly on VONC - if you lose you cannot stand in the subsequent leadership election. Not quite so sure regarding resignation, but I think this was discussed on another MB a couple of weeks ago and I think the situation is that by resigning you are also automatically barred from the leadership election.

I'm just reading the constitution now. The resigning leader is explicitly banned from being on the subsequent ballot.

[ProfessorDavey]

Certainly on VONC - if you lose you cannot stand in the subsequent leadership election. Not quite so sure regarding resignation, but I think this was discussed on another MB a couple of weeks ago and I think the situation is that by resigning you are also automatically barred from the leadership election.

Checked it out - if he resigns he cannot stand in the subsequent election - this from the Conservative Party Constitution:

'A Leader resigning from the Leadership of the Party is not eligible for re-nomination in the consequent Leadership election'

There has been discussion that he could try to remain PM even if he is ousted as leader of the Conservative party through a VONC, noting that the two positions (PM and leader of the Conservative party) are different things.

[ProfessorDavey]

I'm just reading the constitution now. The resigning leader is explicitly banned from being on the subsequent ballot.

Yup - you beat me to it.

[SusanDoris]

Yup - you beat me to it.

It's all a big 'if', isn't it?! Do you really think he is going to resign? MPs have not put forward a vote of no confidence, have they.

[jeremyp]

It's all a big 'if', isn't it?! Do you really think he is going to resign? MPs have not put forward a vote of no confidence, have they.

No I don't think he's going to resign. I think he should though, because he has no credibility left with the majority of the people he purports to lead (I mean as prime minister, not leader of the Conservative Party).

[ProfessorDavey]

It's all a big 'if', isn't it?!

Indeed it is - anyone with a shred of integrity would have already resigned.

Do you really think he is going to resign?

He's clearly not going to go easily. The police questionnaire may well be a lose/lose bear trap. Answer yes and he'll be fined (effectively a conviction) and it is difficult to see how he survives this. Moreover if he accepts a fine he will have, effective, admitted that he lied to parliament, which is a resigning issue. Try to claim he wasn't there, it wasn't a party etc etc and he runs the risk of going down the Chris Huhne route - it wasn't the speeding fine that got him, it was perverting the course of justice that did for him by claiming his wife was driving. So if Boris lies on the questionnaire the sanction might not be just a fine, but jail time as perverting the course of justice is a much more serious offence than speeding or partying during lock-down.

MPs have not put forward a vote of no confidence, have they.

Yet - I suspect they are planning the optimal moment. Currently it is still easy to 'wait and see' - the time to strike, I imagine will be when (if) he is found guilty of breaking the lockdown law. And remember that those plotting against him don't just need to trigger a VONC - they need to win it. They will want the actual vote to take place when their colleagues cannot be in 'wait and see mode'.