Author Topic: Should he stay or should he go?  (Read 25275 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #275 on: April 19, 2022, 02:16:42 PM »
I put forward the turd some neighbour's dog left in my garden overnight, so you no longer have that excuse. Starmer, Davey, Denyer/Ramsay, Sturgeon... all of them more trustworthy than Johnson.
I think the choice is limited to Conservative MPs for the moment.

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Nearly Sane

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #276 on: April 19, 2022, 02:26:27 PM »
The answer is simpler than that - my decreasing levels of energy and available activities leave me with a lack of things to occupy my mind. The Saturday DT crosswords are too often  more like toughies than more aimed at the weekend solver and, much as I am still enjoying re-reading 'Origins', it is not the same as reading visually. I suppose Politics counts as a last resort for me!No, it just means I used to do helpful things such as delivering leaflets (I'd had to leave teaching with  minimal warning) and the Club organised days out and the food was good. Also I got to know some interesting people.
And obviously in the case of Swayne support homophobes because the food was good and he was 'interesting'

Nearly Sane

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #277 on: April 19, 2022, 02:27:33 PM »
I think the choice is limited to Conservative MPs for the moment.
Are we sure that the turd is not a Tory MP?

SteveH

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #278 on: April 20, 2022, 07:52:52 AM »
And obviously in the case of Swayne support homophobes because the food was good and he was 'interesting'
Your non-stop adolescent sarcasm really gets on my tits.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2022, 09:43:40 AM by Steve H »
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jeremyp

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #279 on: April 20, 2022, 08:36:30 AM »
Are we sure that the turd is not a Tory MP?

Several other options were put forward in the same comment, none of whom are Tory MPs.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #280 on: April 20, 2022, 09:08:09 AM »
No, it just means I used to do helpful things such as delivering leaflets (I'd had to leave teaching with  minimal warning) and the Club organised days out and the food was good. Also I got to know some interesting people.
Nope Susan - that doesn't wash.

I used to be a member of a political party (not the Tories of course), and therefore I understand the 'hierarchy' of party political engagement very well. I doubt very much that it is different in the Tories, and it certainly didn't used to be at the time when my parents were both Tory members and Tory activists.

So the first thing to say is that only about 200,000 (compared to the nigh on 14 million who voted tory in 2019). So even in terms of tory supporters, a conservative party member is a very, very rare beast - just 1.4% of tory voters. So simply by being a member suggests a very unusual level of commitment to the conservative party.

Secondly (again unless your party association is very, very different to the one I was closely involved in, which I doubt), most party members are paper members only, not activists - they do absolutely zilch for the party on the ground. There are a smaller group of activists, who actually do stuff and as you were doing stuff you are part of that minority of the minority. Now there tends to be a hierarchy here too - the lowest level of activism tends to be delivering leaflets as it doesn't require you to justify your views on the doorstep (this is where you sit Susan). You then move to higher levels of activism - further subsets who canvass, who stand in elections, who take up officer roles in the party. You don't seem to indicate you got further than a leaflet-delivering party member and activist - but even to be in this position isn't what 'most' people do, nor even 'many' people - it is a tiny number politically engaged and passionate enough who do this - that's you Susan.

I note you also cast off leaflet delivering as 'helpful' - helpful to whom? Well obviously helpful to the Conservative party as leaflets are all about getting people to vote for you by delivering effectively party political propaganda - they serve no other meaningful function.

Finally - you mention a 'club' - well presumably that is a Conservative Social Club, such as exists in all sorts of places. But again as far as I am aware these organisations are separate from the Conservative Party and you do not need to be a member of the Conservative Associations (the political party) to be a member of a Conservative Club, nor vice versa. So if you liked the Club and its food you could just have been a member of the club, not also a member of the party, and a political activist at that.

So stop trying to imply that you aren't really political - perhaps you are embarrassed to admit it, but you certainly used to be a Tory party member and activist - and that demonstrates a very high level of engagement in and passion for the Conservative party, given that the vast, vast majority of people aren't members of any political party and even those that are, I suspect most aren't activists.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2022, 09:20:28 AM by ProfessorDavey »

SusanDoris

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #281 on: April 20, 2022, 10:29:07 AM »
Prof Davey

Well, you can write as many words as you like, suggest anything you like about my motives, commitment, etc etc, but you will be wrong on just about every count. I am so far out on the fringes of the Conservative Party that I've hardly a toe left inside!
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #282 on: April 20, 2022, 10:43:30 AM »
Prof Davey

Well, you can write as many words as you like, suggest anything you like about my motives, commitment, etc etc, but you will be wrong on just about every count. I am so far out on the fringes of the Conservative Party that I've hardly a toe left inside!
So far on the fringes that you are still supporting the PM, believing that he shouldn't be replaced and supporting a rather odious local MP.

Are you still a member of the Conservative Party Susan, or have you torn up your membership card (not that people actually do that, they just leave or let their membership lapse). If you remain a member it is hard to argue that you are out on the fringes as I've pointed out party members are the hardest of hard core supporters, representing just 1.4% of people who support the Tories by voting for them at the ballot box.

Anyhow - just off to a roundtable meeting which includes as attendees, one Boris Johnson and one Keir Starmer (not that I expect either to turn up).

« Last Edit: April 20, 2022, 11:53:04 AM by ProfessorDavey »

SusanDoris

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #283 on: April 20, 2022, 01:53:29 PM »
So far on the fringes that you are still supporting the PM,
Try to cite my exact words which say I support the PM.You will not find them.
Quote
  believing that he shouldn't be replaced and supporting a rather odious local MP.
I am still a member, paying only a small subscription, because of what I  do not want to see and that is the Labour Party or the Lib Dems in Government.
Quote
Are you still a member of the Conservative Party Susan, or have you torn up your membership card (not that people actually do that, they just leave or let their membership lapse). If you remain a member it is hard to argue that you are out on the fringes as I've pointed out party members are the hardest of hard core supporters, representing just 1.4% of people who support the Tories by voting for them at the ballot box.
Please explain to me why you  think I should accept your interpretation of my views and opinions instead of my own?!!

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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #284 on: April 20, 2022, 03:22:51 PM »
Try to cite my exact words which say I support the PM.You will not find them.
When all around are calling for him to go, if you do not do so then you support him - simple as that.

I am still a member, paying only a small subscription ...
If you are a member - noting that 98.6% of even tory voters aren't members, the it is pretty difficult to argue that you aren't really interested in politics and not really in the tory camp if you remain a tory party member.

SusanDoris

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #285 on: April 20, 2022, 05:06:30 PM »
When all around are calling for him to go, if you do not do so then you support him - simple as that.
If you are a member - noting that 98.6% of even tory voters aren't members, the it is pretty difficult to argue that you aren't really interested in politics and not really in the tory camp if you remain a tory party member.
You can, of course, infer whatever you like, but so far you are inferringwrongly.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #286 on: April 20, 2022, 05:31:13 PM »
You can, of course, infer whatever you like, but so far you are inferringwrongly.
So tell me which of my inferences are wrong.

I infer that:

1. You are a tory party member (and indeed an activist, although perhaps not now) and that you have chosen to remain a member when you could have left if you didn't support Boris
2. That you voted tory in the 2019 general election and therefore helped ensure that Boris was elected as PM.
3. On this thread that you have consistently found excuses not to call for Boris to resign

Which of these is wrong - do tell us.


Two further questions for you.

1. As you are a tory party member you will have had a vote in the 2019 leadership election - can you confirm please that you voted for Jeremy Hunt.
2. Do you want Boris to either resign or be removed as PM?

SteveH

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #287 on: April 20, 2022, 10:46:25 PM »
If Johnson goes, will it be labelled "Borexit"?
Some people should lay off SD: she doesn't have to justify her voting or party membership to anyone.
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #288 on: April 20, 2022, 11:12:11 PM »
Try to cite my exact words which say I support the PM. You will not find them. I am still a member, paying only a small subscription, because of what I  do not want to see and that is the Labour Party or the Lib Dems in Government. Please explain to me why you  think I should accept your interpretation of my views and opinions instead of my own?!!
I can relate to not wanting Labour or Lib Dems in power given their total immersion in trans ideology. Johnson does not appear to care how he is perceived by not parroting Stonewall on this issue so much as I think he is liar and seems to think rules do not apply to him, I would not want him replaced by a Tory who would be scared of standing up to the trans lobby.

Not sure how decisive Labour or Lib Dems or Johnson's replacement would be in relation to arming Ukraine either. The current PM needs to go but maybe not while the war in Ukraine is happening.
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jeremyp

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #289 on: April 21, 2022, 07:09:34 AM »
When all around are calling for him to go, if you do not do so then you support him - simple as that.
You're either with us or with the terrorists!

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jeremyp

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #290 on: April 21, 2022, 07:10:30 AM »
So tell me which of my inferences are wrong.

I infer that:

1. You are a tory party member (and indeed an activist, although perhaps not now) and that you have chosen to remain a member when you could have left if you didn't support Boris
2. That you voted tory in the 2019 general election and therefore helped ensure that Boris was elected as PM.
3. On this thread that you have consistently found excuses not to call for Boris to resign

Which of these is wrong - do tell us.


Two further questions for you.

1. As you are a tory party member you will have had a vote in the 2019 leadership election - can you confirm please that you voted for Jeremy Hunt.
2. Do you want Boris to either resign or be removed as PM?

You really don't know twhen to let things go do you.
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SusanDoris

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #291 on: April 21, 2022, 08:10:28 AM »
So tell me which of my inferences are wrong.

I infer that:

1. You are a tory party member (and indeed an activist, although perhaps not now) and that you have chosen to remain a member when you could have left if you didn't support Boris
[Yes, I pay a small sub so I am a member of the Conservative Party. I am most certainly not an activist and even when I was doing this and that, it was more because I liked the social aspect. I see no particular reason why I should leave and curiosity about what's going on that keeps me reading the occasional missive from HQ.  To think that I remain a member in order to support Boris doesn't appear on any list of mine.
Quote
2. That you voted tory in the 2019 general election and therefore helped ensure that Boris was elected as PM.
I voted FOR the local MP That is all. I chose NOT to vote for any other name on the list. I did not vote for subsequent consequencies.
Quote
3. On this thread that you have consistently found excuses not to call for Boris to resign
They were nothing to do with excuses and nothing to do with demanding his resignation. I have consistently pointed out that he is inthe there in the position of PM, has not been pushed out,would possibly/probably still be there even if MPs put someone else forward to replace him, that other things have to happen before a change is possible etc. If you choose to interpret the things I have said as excuses FOR Boris, that is your problem, not mine.
Quote
Which of these is wrong - do tell us.
Two further questions for you.

1. As you are a tory party member you will have had a vote in the 2019 leadership election - can you confirm please that you voted for Jeremy Hunt.
Yes, and have said so on several occasions ... I do not lie!
Quote
2. Do you want Boris to either resign or be removed as PM?
I do not bother to think about it. One of the reasons I think it is interesting still to have a vote in the Party is that if the option comes up, I can decide which MP to vote for.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #292 on: April 21, 2022, 08:47:29 AM »
Quote
Not sure how decisive Labour or Lib Dems or Johnson's replacement would be in relation to arming Ukraine either. The current PM needs to go but maybe not while the war in Ukraine is happening.

Don't usually like to say this to your posts Gabriella but that's just bollocks.

If we could change the leader in WW2 I think we'll manage fine now.

Ben Wallace is the man driving our response anyway, thank goodness. He's the politician who has been behind the HoC unified response, way back in November he organised military briefings on Ukraine/Russia for Starmer and the shadow defence secretary. Since then regular briefings for all party leaders.

Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #293 on: April 21, 2022, 09:29:59 AM »
Don't usually like to say this to your posts Gabriella but that's just bollocks.

If we could change the leader in WW2 I think we'll manage fine now.
Absolutely - this notion that we cannot change a leader 'because there is a war on' is total nonsense and just a 'Save Big Dog' tactic from the Boris apologists.

You are correct - Boris seems obsessed by Churchill, but if we mustn't change a leader 'because there is a war on' then he'd never have become PM in WW2. We also changed our leader in WW1, with Lloyd-George becoming leader in 1916.

And these were wars we were actually engaged in - remember we are not currently at war at all.

And the examples go on.

We were at war in Afghanistan when Blair was replaced by Brown, Brown was replaced by Cameron, Cameron was replaced by May and May was replaced by Johnson.

We were at war in Iraq when Blair was replaced by Brown and Brown was replaced by Cameron.

We were effectively at war when Thatcher was replaced by Major - Iraq had invaded Kuwait and we were planning the invasion.

And these are wars we were directly involved in.

In terms of 'there is a war on' that we aren't directly involved in (like the current conflict).

There was a war in Yugoslavia when Major was replaced by Blair; a war in Syria when Cameron was replaced by May and May by Johnson.

Need I go on.

But there is a more significant point - about credibility of your leader on the international stage. Boris has pretty well zero credibility internationally - he is a busted flush, a laughing stock. How can he stand up to Putin when any criticism provides a propaganda open goal for Putin - he has the easiest of repost that Boris lies to his own people and breaks his own laws. Virtually any other leader would have greater international credibility, and that's what we need at the moment.

So not only can we change a leader 'when there is a war on' (as history tells us) but we need to do so precisely because Boris cannot be an effective leader internationally.

SusanDoris

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #294 on: April 21, 2022, 11:25:53 AM »
Prof D

So another rant a boutt why can't we change leaders.  My question is:

who is the person who should take his place?

How would you ensure he he/she was willing, had name put forward, would receive approval from all, etc etc?

I don't think you will be able to answer those questions in any practcal,feasible way.

You make many assumptions and assertions about what the rest of the world thinks about UK and its Government? I bet you don't look for any comments that might be supportive!!
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #295 on: April 21, 2022, 11:54:21 AM »
Prof D

So another rant a boutt why can't we change leaders.  My question is:

who is the person who should take his place?

How would you ensure he he/she was willing, had name put forward, would receive approval from all, etc etc?

I don't think you will be able to answer those questions in any practcal,feasible way.
There you go again - turning one question into another.

The point here is whether you think that Boris should go - the issue of who should or might replace him is a separate matter entirely, just as it was when Cameron decided to resign, and when May decided to resign and indeed when Blair and Thatcher decided to resign. In none of those situations was it certain who would replace them.

It is classic obfuscation and apologist territory to argue that person X or person Y shouldn't go because we don't know who might replace them. Again classic Save Big Dog - looks like you've been getting and digesting the party line very well Susan.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2022, 12:11:07 PM by ProfessorDavey »

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #296 on: April 21, 2022, 12:08:44 PM »
You make many assumptions and assertions about what the rest of the world thinks about UK and its Government? I bet you don't look for any comments that might be supportive!!
I don't make assumptions at all:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/26/angela-merkel-scores-higher-in-approval-ratings-than-any-current-world-leader

And this was last summer before all the party gate stuff.

Even then Boris was consistently the worst regarded leader (except for Putin and Xi) across a range of key countries. And maybe try googling 'Boris Johnson International Reputation' (an neutral search so no more likely to come up with negative than positive hits). Note the top hits talk about damaging, shredding UK reputation etc.

ProfessorDavey

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #297 on: April 21, 2022, 12:13:30 PM »
You make many assumptions and assertions about what the rest of the world thinks about UK and its Government? I bet you don't look for any comments that might be supportive!!
Ouch:

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/boris-johnson-uk-prime-minister-what-world-media-saying-beginning-end-1410283

SusanDoris

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #298 on: April 21, 2022, 03:40:39 PM »
There you go again - turning one question into another.

The point here is whether you think that Boris should go - the issue of who should or might replace him is a separate matter entirely, just as it was when Cameron decided to resign, and when May decided to resign and indeed when Blair and Thatcher decided to resign. In none of those situations was it certain who would replace them.

It is classic obfuscation and apologist territory to argue that person X or person Y shouldn't go because we don't know who might replace them. Again classic Save Big Dog - looks like you've been getting and digesting the party line very well Susan.
And there you]/] go again, implying or inferring - take your pifk!! - that Boris will resign. The liklihood of that is small.

Just for fun, why not spend a minute or so reading the first few blog posts of Sir Desmond Swayne and then tell me if you cannot find a word here and there which is not the worst of opinions with not a redeeming feature.

I will accept a similar opposing challenge ...

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SusanDoris

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Re: Should he stay or should he go?
« Reply #299 on: April 21, 2022, 03:46:31 PM »
Ouch:

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/boris-johnson-uk-prime-minister-what-world-media-saying-beginning-end-1410283
It's "pick out the bits we want to write" time again!

Unfortunately, I shall not be here when a detached view of this period's history is written.
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