Should he stay or should he go?

[ProfessorDavey]

And there you]/] go again, implying or inferring - take your pifk!! - that Boris will resign. The liklihood of that is small.

Again changing the question.

My question isn't whether you think Boris will resign/be ousted by his MPs due to his lying and law breaking. Nope my question is whether you think he should resign/be ousted by his MPs due to his lying and law breaking.

It is perfectly reasonable to think that he isn't going to resign/be ousted but also to think that he should resign - I suspect that is a very, very mainstream view in the UK at the moment. But that he might not resign/be ousted has no bearing on whether I think he should resign/be ousted. I do think he should resign or be ousted - why is this such a difficult question for you to address Susan.

But you seem constantly to avoid the question - it isn't a difficult one is it Susan. All I can conclude by your constant avoidance of answering this simple question is that you want him to stay but are too embarrassed to say.

[ProfessorDavey]

It's "pick out the bits we want to write" time again!

Unfortunately, I shall not be here when a detached view of this period's history is written.

I am not 'picking out the bits' - quite the reverse - hence also using polling (this doesn't pick out the bits) and suggesting googling using a neutral phrase.

Susan - you may not be around when a detached view is written but do you really think it will be more favourable? If so, why?

[SusanDoris]

Again changing the question.

My question isn't whether you think Boris will resign/be ousted by his MPs due to his lying and law breaking. Nope my question is whether you think he should resign/be ousted by his MPs due to his lying and law breaking.

If the 'lying and law-breaking' was clearly stated as being everything he has done in the past as well as the 'party-gate' business, then he wouldn't be in place now. And I might possibly take it into account as a very important issue - which I do not. 

But it isn't, it is just focused on the "crime" for which he has to pay a fine and is most certainly not under threat of being put in prison, then no, I think it is too petty a matter. A resignation would be out of all proportion - which is perhaps why is in fact still in place.

It is perfectly reasonable to think that he isn't going to resign/be ousted but also to think that he should resign - I suspect that is a very, very mainstream view in the UK at the moment.

It is the one picked up by the left-wing journalists and broadcasters who know it will make more noise and sell a few more newspapers, but if I could use these social media, I bet I'd find a large number who prefer him to remain in post, much as you personally do not like it!

But that he might not resign/be ousted has no bearing on whether I think he should resign/be ousted. I do think he should resign or be ousted - why is this such a difficult question for you to address Susan.

No, I do not think he should resign at the moment, or for the present storm in a teacup or with the current political situation.

But you seem constantly to avoid the question - it isn't a difficult one is it Susan. All I can conclude by your constant avoidance of answering this simple question is that you want him to stay but are too embarrassed to say

I am never embarressed to express any view. I jjust think it is being blown up out of all proportion and as is evident from the lack of huge demands for his resignation from those who have the power to try and force it, he isn't resigning. 

[Gordon]

Looking at some of the comments from Tory MPs in the HoC debate today, such as Steve Baker, I suspect Johnson is already toast, and his demise is just a matter of timing. 

[Aruntraveller]

If the 'lying and law-breaking' was clearly stated as being everything he has done in the past as well as the 'party-gate' business, then he wouldn't be in place now. And I might possibly take it into account as a very important issue - which I do not. 

But it isn't, it is just focused on the "crime" for which he has to pay a fine and is most certainly not under threat of being put in prison, then no, I think it is too petty a matter. A resignation would be out of all proportion - which is perhaps why is in fact still in place.It is the one picked up by the left-wing journalists and broadcasters who know it will make more noise and sell a few more newspapers, but if I could use these social media, I bet I'd find a large number who prefer him to remain in post, much as you personally do not like it!No, I do not think he should resign at the moment, or for the present storm in a teacup or with the current political situation. I am never embarressed to express any view. I jjust think it is being blown up out of all proportion and as is evident from the lack of huge demands for his resignation from those who have the power to try and force it, he isn't resigning.

Tell us again, how you aren't supporting and defending him, and how you aren't an active supporter.

You've even gone on a left-wing journalist rant. Typical Tory behaviour. You're too funny.

[SusanDoris]

Tell us again, how you aren't supporting and defending him, and how you aren't an active supporter.

You've even gone on a left-wing journalist rant. Typical Tory behaviour. You're too funny.

certainly a sense of humour is necessary! I shall be shutting down the computer in a minute, but although I have had a pleasant afternoon reading and responding, I have not wasted a second becoming in the smallest degree worked up!! I am far too keen on remaining alive to do that and in any case, it is just not in mynature to do so.

When I hear about the appalling behaviour of the Russian Orthodox Church, Putin and his authorisation of the killing of thousands because of the Ukrainian's Orthodox Church  splitting from the Russsian . oneI am so saddened, but doing any ranting of any kind about that won't help them and it certainly won't help me stay alive to read it.

[Dicky Underpants]

Tell us again, how you aren't supporting and defending him, and how you aren't an active supporter.

You've even gone on a left-wing journalist rant. Typical Tory behaviour. You're too funny.

The BJ apologists continually insist that we should draw a line under such 'trivial' matters and let Johnson get to grips with far more important things on the world stage. His opponents are accused of wasting valuable time. Well, the parliamentary debate today has convinced me (I didn't need much convincing) that it is Johnson himself who is wasting time, and has been for a long while. Constant obfuscation, weasel words and crocodile tears, outright lies, simply because he can't bring himself to do the decent thing, and get his fat arse out of the way, and allow somebody with a stronger moral compass to come forward. There must be be one or two in the Tory party with enough intellect, energy and true sense of right and wrong to take over. The idea that Johnson is 'indispensable' at the present time is laughable.

[SusanDoris]

The BJ apologists continually insist that we should draw a line under such 'trivial' matters and let Johnson get to grips with far more important things on the world stage. His opponents are accused of wasting valuable time. Well, the parliamentary debate today has convinced me (I didn't need much convincing) that it is Johnson himself who is wasting time, and has been for a long while. Constant obfuscation, weasel words and crocodile tears, outright lies, simply because he can't bring himself to do the decent thing, and get his fat arse out of the way, and allow somebody with a stronger moral compass to come forward. There must be be one or two in the Tory party with enough intellect, energy and true sense of right and wrong to take over. The idea that Johnson is 'indispensable' at the present time is laughable.

I go back to a question I have asked several times: Name an NP likely to be successful in getting voted in if the PM did resign.

All the blusterand outrage expressed by those who are anti-Conservative regardless of any merit anywhere are wasting energy. I refuse to do any of that. I look at things from as impartial a way as I can.

[ProfessorDavey]

No, I do not think he should resign at the moment, or for the present storm in a teacup or with the current political situation.

So there we have it ... finally Susan comes off the fence (not that your view hasn't been clear all along - you have just avoided expressing it). So you are in support of Boris - clear and simply, no further explanation needed. But why would we expect anything else from a tory voting, tory party member and ex tory activist.

I am never embarressed to express any view.

Could have fooled me, seeing as it has been like pulling teeth to get you to answer a simple question - whether you think Boris should resign/be ousted.

[ProfessorDavey]

It is the one picked up by the left-wing journalists and broadcasters who know it will make more noise and sell a few more newspapers, but if I could use these social media, I bet I'd find a large number who prefer him to remain in post, much as you personally do not like it!

The way to gauge opinion on such matter is neither to look at social media, nor to read newspaper op-eds. Nope it is to look at reputable opinion polling.

So of course there are some people who don't want Boris to go - there will always be people who hold minority opinions. But the polling is clear - by a very wide margin people think that Boris is lying and that he should resign.

In the most recent polling an astonishing 78% think he lied over party gate compared to just 8% who don't think he lied. And across a range of recent polls by a margin of typically two to one the public think he should resign.

So, sure, clearly just a few left wing journalists eh!

[Gordon]

I go back to a question I have asked several times: Name an NP likely to be successful in getting voted in if the PM did resign.

Sadly it would be another Tory - but surely they have someone who would be an improvement on Johnson: that is a pretty low bar, and if they have nobody better than him then we are all, to use a technical term, fucked.

All the blusterand outrage expressed by those who are anti-Conservative regardless of any merit anywhere are wasting energy. I refuse to do any of that. I look at things from as impartial a way as I can.

So far as I can see the current Tory party are a merit-free zone, so we need rid of Johnson and his party.

[ProfessorDavey]

Name an NP likely to be successful in getting voted in if the PM did resign.

Always a bit of a gamble to pick a winner in a tory leadership election. But there most certainly will be a winner in the inevitable leadership election which will happen if Boris resigns or is ousted.

So it is a bit of a non-point isn't it Susan - that we don't know who might win a leadership election has no bearing on whether we might think that Boris should go.

[ProfessorDavey]

Sadly it would be another Tory - but surely they have someone who would be an improvement on Johnson: that is a pretty low bar, and if they have nobody better than him then we are all, to use a technical term, fucked.

So far as I can see the current Tory party are a merit-free zone, so we need rid of Johnson and his party.

Good points Gordon.

And interestingly this is where I think we've reached cross-over. Effectively that the best plan for the tories to have any chance to retain power is to get rid of Boris, while for the opposition he is the gift that keeps giving, and realistically they'd love him to hang on kicking and screaming for another couple of years prior to an electoral drubbing.

[ProfessorDavey]

Boris has failed to block an investigation by the Privileges Committee into whether he lied to parliament.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61177313

He'd originally tried to ensure that tory MPs were whipped into opposing the investigation, but clearly wasn't able to persuade his backbenchers to support him so ended up U-turning.

[Gordon]

I suspect that he may jump, or be pushed (but no doubt, if pushed, he will claim that he actually jumped voluntarily) before this gets as far as the Privileges Committee.

It has been reported that although the police won't make announcements about further fines, should Johnson get another fine that will be made public, and if that happens I reckon he will be 'invited' to resign.

The sooner the better.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Don't usually like to say this to your posts Gabriella but that's just bollocks.

If we could change the leader in WW2 I think we'll manage fine now.

Changing the leader during a war is ok - I was specifically talking about whether other potential leaders would be as supportive of arming Ukraine as Johnson. If they are then fine. If they are not, then I'd rather keep Johnson for now despite him breaking the law and misleading Parliament and every other stupid thing he has done in the past -  if that helps Ukraine. Let's face it, Ukraine needs all the help it can get in terms of arms. 

Ben Wallace is the man driving our response anyway, thank goodness. He's the politician who has been behind the HoC unified response, way back in November he organised military briefings on Ukraine/Russia for Starmer and the shadow defence secretary. Since then regular briefings for all party leaders.

Ok - then Wallace may be the best person to take over from Johnson.

[SusanDoris]

So there we have it ... finally Susan comes off the fence (not that your view hasn't been clear all along - you have just avoided expressing it). So you are in support of Boris - clear and simply, no further explanation needed. But why would we expect anything else from a tory voting, tory party member and ex tory activist.
Could have fooled me, seeing as it has been like pulling teeth to get you to answer a simple question - whether you think Boris should resign/be ousted.

I repeat: Just because I say he should not resign at the moment does not imply that I support him. It simply means exactly what it says that I do not think he should resign at the moment. To jump to the conclusion that therefore I support im is incorrect, false, wrong etc. What I say is what I mean, not what you think/infer/etc I mean.

[SusanDoris]

The way to gauge opinion on such matter is neither to look at social media, nor to read newspaper op-eds. Nope it is to look at reputable opinion polling.

So of course there are some people who don't want Boris to go - there will always be people who hold minority opinions. But the polling is clear - by a very wide margin people think that Boris is lying and that he should resign.

In the most recent polling an astonishing 78% think he lied over party gate compared to just 8% who don't think he lied. And across a range of recent polls by a margin of typically two to one the public think he should resign.

So, sure, clearly just a few left wing journalists eh!

It depends on how the question is framed and the response depends on what people think at the moment they are ticking the yes or the no box. And yes they are accurate at the time, but things change all the time. I certainly would not alter my thinkiing or reasoning as a result of any such poll.

[SusanDoris]

Sadly it would be another Tory - but surely they have someone who would be an improvement on Johnson: that is a pretty low bar, and if they have nobody better than him then we are all, to use a technical term, fucked.

So far as I can see the current Tory party are a merit-free zone, so we need rid of Johnson and his party.

But you, like me,  cannot think of a person to take the PM's place.

[SusanDoris]

Always a bit of a gamble to pick a winner in a tory leadership election. But there most certainly will be a winner in the inevitable leadership election which will happen if Boris resigns or is ousted.

So it is a bit of a non-point isn't it Susan - that we don't know who might win a leadership election has no bearing on whether we might think that Boris should go.

Too many if's. Dream on!

[SusanDoris]

Good points Gordon.

And interestingly this is where I think we've reached cross-over. Effectively that the best plan for the tories to have any chance to retain power is to get rid of Boris, while for the opposition he is the gift that keeps giving, and realistically they'd love him to hang on kicking and screaming for another couple of years prior to an electoral drubbing.

Again - dream on!

[SusanDoris]

I suspect that he may jump, or be pushed (but no doubt, if pushed, he will claim that he actually jumped voluntarily) before this gets as far as the Privileges Committee.

It has been reported that although the police won't make announcements about further fines, should Johnson get another fine that will be made public, and if that happens I reckon he will be 'invited' to resign.

The sooner the better.

For general interest, I quote here a few lines from an e-mail received last night from MP Oliver Dowden:

   Today, the Leader of the Opposition, Sir Keir Starmer has been forced to correct the record. 

Yesterday, Sir Keir Starmer claimed that the Prime Minister “accused the BBC of not being critical enough of Vladimir Putin”.

This was an inaccurate claim - without any evidence to support it.

So yesterday, I called for Sir Keir to retract his comments and apologise to the Prime Minister.

And today, Sir Keir was forced to come to the Commons to correct the record.

[Gordon]

For general interest, I quote here a few lines from an e-mail received last night from MP Oliver Dowden:

Can't see how that helps the Tories: Starmer corrected himself and the HoC records, whereas Johnson just lies and doesn't correct himself or the records.

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/johnson-in-parliament

PS - I don't think Starmer was "forced" to the HoC yesterday, as Dowden wrongly claims: I think he was planning to be there anyway, since the motion being discussed was in his name, so I hope Dowden will correct his email.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

But you, like me,  cannot think of a person to take the PM's place.

What is wrong with Ben Wallace taking over?

His voting record does not seem very progressive or liberal but on issues such as protection of biological women's rights and Ukraine he seems to be ok. What is your objection to Wallace?

[SusanDoris]

What is wrong with Ben Wallace taking over?

His voting record does not seem very progressive or liberal but on issues such as protection of biological women's rights and Ukraine he seems to be ok. What is your objection to Wallace?

I have no objection actually. I do not know enough about him,so I might look himup.