Arming the Ukrainians

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But you have to get the equipment there and train them to use it. Plus it wil bankrupt both sides and Ukraine will be decimated.

It's attitudes like that that embolden dictators to do what they do. Enablers have blood on their hands too. What price do you put on the values we stand for?

[jeremyp]

ad o,
No - unless NATO can go in and fight with them, and is prepared to suffer huge losses due to nuclear war, let Ukraine go.

Wait. Are you seriously claiming we should let Russia take Ukraine? Sorry, but you are out of your mind if you think that's a good idea.

[Spud]

Wait. Are you seriously claiming we should let Russia take Ukraine? Sorry, but you are out of your mind if you think that's a good idea.

My view from the start has been that if we don't help them with boots on the ground (hundreds of thousands) the war will rumble on indefinitely.
To be honest it's not for us to let or not let Russia take Ukraine. They need to sort out their own problems. We can provide humanitarian support, but arming them will not help them win but lead to them all being killed over a long period.
We should reserve our military for NATO countries and strengthen our presence in NATO countries at risk of attack from Russia. Then de-escalate, negotiating mutual de-armament, peacefully.
The only way we could save Ukraine would be to treat them as NATO members and put boots on the ground - a lot of them.
Jus my view.

[Spud]

This is from a report about a speech Putin gave:

Full article here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/22/putin-speech-russia-empire-threat-ukraine-moscow

History teaches us that empires, dictators, and madmen don't stop at just one country.

As there are elements of all three of those in this tragic tangle of Putin, history, and misplaced wounded pride, I have no reason to hope that Putin would stop at Ukraine.

At the beginning of this conflict you were surprised he'd invaded, even when you had the evidence of massed troops on the border:

 I'm not sure you're understanding of Putin or history is that well-informed.

Has Putin indicated any intention to invade a NATO country? Is that likely?

[Aruntraveller]

You really aren't paying attention, are you?

You didn't think he'd invade Ukraine, based on some naive idea you had that Putin's word could be trusted.
If we let him get away with this, he will then chance his arm further.

And you are changing the playing field a little. You talked about Europe, not NAto countries here:

Is Russia aiming to overrun Europe?

As Ukraine is part of Europe then I'd have to say yes, he has started.

As pointed out in the article I linked to, the arguments used by Putin for Ukraine can equally be used for the Baltic states, Finland & Poland.

As it is already well known that he is unstable then he might think NATO is weak enough to just stand by if we don't stop him now. He cannot be allowed to succeed in Ukraine.

[ad_orientem]

My view from the start has been that if we don't help them with boots on the ground (hundreds of thousands) the war will rumble on indefinitely.
To be honest it's not for us to let or not let Russia take Ukraine. They need to sort out their own problems. We can provide humanitarian support, but arming them will not help them win but lead to them all being killed over a long period.
We should reserve our military for NATO countries and strengthen our presence in NATO countries at risk of attack from Russia. Then de-escalate, negotiating mutual de-armament, peacefully.
The only way we could save Ukraine would be to treat them as NATO members and put boots on the ground - a lot of them.
Jus my view.

Yeah, just your view and you're dangerously wrong. How Russia runs its own internal affairs is indeed its own business. Russians by and large seem content to live in perpetual serfdom. Well they can have it, along with their mouldy burgers and outside khazis. When they start invading their neighbours it becomes other people's business though. This isn't some internal dispute as your language seems to suggest. That's just Russian propaganda for the vatniks back home. This is full out invasion and genocide of a sovereign nation and people.

Russia is losing this war already. Today the go ahead has been given to give Ukraine fighter jets. More HIMARS are on the way (Man! I love HIMARS! That's when vatnik goes boom!) and heavy weaponry are on the way. First Herson, then Crimea, and then the Black Sea fleet. Finally Donbas. See you later Russia!

[Spud]

You really aren't paying attention, are you?

You didn't think he'd invade Ukraine, based on some naive idea you had that Putin's word could be trusted.
If we let him get away with this, he will then chance his arm further.

And you are changing the playing field a little. You talked about Europe, not NAto countries here:

As Ukraine is part of Europe then I'd have to say yes, he has started.

As pointed out in the article I linked to, the arguments used by Putin for Ukraine can equally be used for the Baltic states, Finland & Poland.

As it is already well known that he is unstable then he might think NATO is weak enough to just stand by if we don't stop him now. He cannot be allowed to succeed in Ukraine.

I used the word Europe in the sense it meant when Hitler invaded it. I use the word NATO in the literal sense and I think that Putin won't invade a NATO country (if we keep our noses out of the Ukraine war) because he knows he wouldn't be able to win. If NATO joined in, obviously he could attack targets in Poland etc from which it would be operating.

[Spud]

Yeah, just your view and you're dangerously wrong. How Russia runs its own internal affairs is indeed its own business. Russians by and large seem content to live in perpetual serfdom. Well they can have it, along with their mouldy burgers and outside khazis. When they start invading their neighbours it becomes other people's business though. This isn't some internal dispute as your language seems to suggest. That's just Russian propaganda for the vatniks back home. This is full out invasion and genocide of a sovereign nation and people.

So let's go and make a no-fly zone and put boots on the ground. That's the only way Ukraine can be saved. The Kurds did well against Isis but we were helping them with air support. This is not Isis, it's Russia.
And we can't really go to war with Russia, because it could turn nuclear. The best we can do is humanitarian support.
Incidentally, why didn't we stay in Afghanistan? Because we haven't got a mandate to fight an ongoing war with the Taliban.

Russia is losing this war already. Today the go ahead has been given to give Ukraine fighter jets. More HIMARS are on the way (Man! I love HIMARS! That's when vatnik goes boom!) and heavy weaponry are on the way. First Herson, then Crimea, and then the Black Sea fleet. Finally Donbas. See you later Russia!

Tough talk. So are you going to go and help the Ukrainians? No, you're letting them do the dying while you sit watching it on TV.
From where I sit it looks like the west is using Ukrainians to weaken Russia, while not willing to get their hands dirty.

[Aruntraveller]

I think that Putin won't invade a NATO country

Is that the same "I think" that was involved in your last prediction?

I do hope you don't find yourself having to use the phrase "How wrong was I......" again.

I'm afraid though that were we to follow your line of complete surrender you will find yourself uttering that phrase at least once more.

[ad_orientem]

So let's go and make a no-fly zone and put boots on the ground. That's the only way Ukraine can be saved. The Kurds did well against Isis but we were helping them with air support. This is not Isis, it's Russia.
And we can't really go to war with Russia, because it could turn nuclear. The best we can do is humanitarian support.
Incidentally, why didn't we stay in Afghanistan? Because we haven't got a mandate to fight an ongoing war with the Taliban.
Tough talk. So are you going to go and help the Ukrainians? No, you're letting them do the dying while you sit watching it on TV.
From where I sit it looks like the west is using Ukrainians to weaken Russia, while not willing to get their hands dirty.

Spud! Vatnik propagandist! You don't really believe all that guff do you? Putin's threats are all bluff. He and his cronies have played the nuclear card too often. If they had any intention of using them they would have by now.

As for the last bit, that's risible! Have you ever asked what Ukrainians actually want? Obviously not! So enough of your westplaining. You're a dictator enabler and you have blood on your hands!

[Spud]

Is that the same "I think" that was involved in your last prediction?

I do hope you don't find yourself having to use the phrase "How wrong was I......" again.

I'm afraid though that were we to follow your line of complete surrender you will find yourself uttering that phrase at least once more.

I recall being wrong about Putin invading Ukraine and trying to capture Kiev. The latter was a tactical blunder by Russia; once they'd retreated and focused on the Donbass they made more progress.
The difference with NATO countries is they have two significant deterrents: the commitment to defend each other, and nuclear weapons.

Spud! Vatnik propagandist! You don't really believe all that guff do you? Putin's threats are all bluff. He and his cronies have played the nuclear card too often. If they had any intention of using them they would have by now.

What reason would he have had to use them by now?

As for the last bit, that's risible! Have you ever asked what Ukrainians actually want? Obviously not! So enough of your westplaining. You're a dictator enabler and you have blood on your hands!

I'm not saying NATO shouldn't help directly; the risk of nukes is there, but they could still have made a no-fly zone, especially if it's true that Putin is bluffing on nukes. I'm not against that, my argument is that without it, there could be a stalemate.
I hope I am wrong about that and the assistance we have given achieves its objective.

[Aruntraveller]

The difference with NATO countries is they have two significant deterrents: the commitment to defend each other, and nuclear weapons

I agree they do.

I'm just not sure Putin is thinking in those rational terms about the situation.

[ad_orientem]

What reason would he have had to use them by now?
I'm not saying NATO shouldn't help directly; the risk of nukes is there, but they could still have made a no-fly zone, especially if it's true that Putin is bluffing on nukes. I'm not against that, my argument is that without it, there could be a stalemate.
I hope I am wrong about that and the assistance we have given achieves its objective.

What reason? The fact that we're intervening perhaps and because of that inflicting heavy casualties on them? Do you not remember the very many threats when they invaded? People have very short memories and/or Russian disinformation is doing its job.

You give far too much credit to the Russian armed forces. That's not to underestimate them, of course, but the invasion has been a complete farce. In Finnish we have a verb derived from our word for Ruskie (Ryssä). Ryssiä, to screw up. It about sums it up! They're there for the taking. They've resorted to contracting men as old as sixty on three weeks training. Neo-Nazi Wagner are doing the same, except from prisons. Men have been rounded up from the areas they've "liberated" and sent to the frontline as canon fodder. Supplies are low. Ukraine can absolutely win this war. They have never asked for boots on the ground, they've only ever asked to be given the means to win through superior firepower. As for a no-fly zone, at the beginning of the invasion it would have been very useful but at this point unnecessary. The Russians either hardly have any fighter jets left there or they're just not using them.

The West has nearly always tended to go for the easy option, that is, less risk now; but now is the time to take the slightly more riskier (but calculated) option and end this quickly.

[Spud]

Spud! Vatnik propagandist! You don't really believe all that guff do you? Putin's threats are all bluff. He and his cronies have played the nuclear card too often. If they had any intention of using them they would have by now.

As for the last bit, that's risible! Have you ever asked what Ukrainians actually want? Obviously not! So enough of your westplaining. You're a dictator enabler and you have blood on your hands!

My last post was pro-NATO involvement, partly in response to your second paragraph here. Having thought more, I think a non-intervention stance is best. I guess I'll have to put up with your criticism.

[ad_orientem]

My last post was pro-NATO involvement, partly in response to your second paragraph here. Having thought more, I think a non-intervention stance is best. I guess I'll have to put up with your criticism.

You would gave got on very well with Neville Chamberlain or now with that dotard, Noam Chomsky.

[Spud]

Russia now says that if long-range weapons are placed near its borders, it will expand its objectives to include conquering those areas.

[ad_orientem]

Russia now says that if long-range weapons are placed near its borders, it will expand its objectives to include conquering those areas.

They can try!

[Spud]

They can try!

It shows that Russia's concern about weapons near the border is genuine. So again, the solution will be found in an agreement in which weapons are removed from near borders and not deployed at a threatening distance from the other side.

[ad_orientem]

It shows that Russia's concern about weapons near the border is genuine. So again, the solution will be found in an agreement in which weapons are removed from near borders and not deployed at a threatening distance from the other side.

Russia can eat shit!

[ad_orientem]

Russia can eat shit!

Still better than their burgers though!

[ad_orientem]

More video evidence today (which I will not link to here) of Russian war crimes. Russian soldiers castrate a Ukrainian soldier with a stanley knife and Wagner Group behead and cut off the hands of another Ukrainian soldier and put them on posts for display. And some people still want to negotiate a peace? These are not even human. The only peace is when every last kacap in Ukraine is killed. Every single one of them! Fucking subhuman scum!

[Nearly Sane]

More video evidence today (which I will not link to here) of Russian war crimes. Russian soldiers castrate a Ukrainian soldier with a stanley knife and Wagner Group behead and cut off the hands of another Ukrainian soldier and put them on posts for display. And some people still want to negotiate a peace? These are not even human. The only peace is when every last kacap in Ukraine is killed. Every single one of them! Fucking subhuman scum!

Isn't this the same language as the Russians will be using about the Ukrainians?

[ad_orientem]

Isn't this the same language as the Russians will be using about the Ukrainians?

What's good for the goose...
No fucking mercy!

[Nearly Sane]

What's good for the goose...
No fucking mercy!

Then you become the thing you hate

[ad_orientem]

Then you become the thing you hate

Tell that to the victims and all the people who have been murdered, tortured or raped. Russia must fucking fall.