Arming the Ukrainians

[ad_orientem]

Just when you thought ruSSia couldn't go any lower!

https://kyivindependent.com/news-feed/ombudsman-childrens-torture-chamber-found-in-liberated-kherson

[jeremyp]

Meet the gang cos the boys are here, the boys to entertain you.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64016599

[ad_orientem]

Meet the gang cos the boys are here, the boys to entertain you.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64016599

Frontline cringe!

[ad_orientem]

An important day. The Leopards have finally been freed. Germany finally did the right thing.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64391272

[Nearly Sane]

A year on, where are we? The thread had fallen off the first page. It feels like we have just accepted it as going on for...

[ad_orientem]

I don't think many people gave Ukraine much of a chance. That Ukraine is still fighting on and inflicting heavy casualties on the ruSSians is a testament to their bravery and desire to be part of the free democratic world. We need to be doubling up our efforts to help Ukraine, so that this war doesn't last another year. Neither must we fall into the trap of listening to the peaceniks. They don't want peace, they just want Ukraine to surrender. They side with genocide. Only Ukrainians get to decide when to negotiate peace and on what terms.

[Udayana]

Well, there is no sign of an off-ramp, and not much that can be said to improve the situation.

[Spud]

Not on purpose. Sadly, when you're trying to drive an enemy invader out of your homeland, some civilians are going to get caught up in it. This wouldn't be happening if the enemy hadn't invaded, or, having invaded, withdrew.

It has been on purpose, often with Western-supplied weapons. Last June 13 they shelled a busy maternity hospital.. In April they hit two marketplaces.

Russian narrative again. There was no separatist movement in Ukraine. Pre 2014 east Ukraine was pro-Ukrainian in elections.

Donbass declared independence because of the Maidan revolution and coup. Before that the majority wanted free trade with its neighbour.

[jeremyp]

It has been on purpose, often with Western-supplied weapons. Last June 13 they shelled a busy maternity hospital.. In April they hit two marketplaces.
Donbass declared independence because of the Maidan revolution and coup. Before that the majority wanted free trade with its neighbour.

Bullshit. The only people shelling civilians on purpose are the Russians.

[jeremyp]

Neither must we fall into the trap of listening to the peaceniks. They don't want peace, they just want Ukraine to surrender. They side with genocide. Only Ukrainians get to decide when to negotiate peace and on what terms.

They do want peace. Unfortunately, they are naive about what peace on Russian terms looks like.

In case there's any doubt, peace on Russian terms looks like genocide.

[Aruntraveller]

Bullshit. The only people shelling civilians on purpose are the Russians.

No point waiting your breath, Spud is so dense that black holes do their best to avoid him.

[ad_orientem]

Donbass declared independence because of the Maidan revolution and coup. Before that the majority wanted free trade with its neighbour.

There was no coup. Yanukovych was democratically removed by the Verkhovna Rada (parliament). He fled, because he knew he would've been impeached. He wasn't in imminent danger. Even the Communist Party (pro-russian) voted for his removal!

[Spud]

There was no coup. Yanukovych was democratically removed by the Verkhovna Rada (parliament). He fled, because he knew he would've been impeached. He wasn't in imminent danger. Even the Communist Party (pro-russian) voted for his removal!

Iirc, the Constitution required a minimum of 334 yes votes following a legal hearing by the supreme court.

[Spud]

Bullshit. The only people shelling civilians on purpose are the Russians.

We are talking about Ukrainians shelling civilians between 2014 and last February, according to locals in Donetsk; I gave examples of how that continued last year.

[ad_orientem]

We are talking about Ukrainians shelling civilians between 2014 and last February, according to locals in Donetsk; I gave examples of how that continued last year.

Another nice piece of ruSSian propaganda. The reality is quite different though.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g-YKRc_b7CE

But even if it were true, ruSSia invaded eastern Ukraine in 2014. Is Ukraine not expected to fight back? You're pronouncing nonsense!

[Spud]

Another nice piece of ruSSian propaganda. The reality is quite different though.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g-YKRc_b7CE

But even if it were true, ruSSia invaded eastern Ukraine in 2014. Is Ukraine not expected to fight back? You're pronouncing nonsense!

Okay, I get that it wasn't simply shelling civilians but was attempting to regain territory by force.
As I understand it, the Ukrainian parliament acted unlawfully following the violent demonstrations in Kiev. You can expect people in pro-russian regions to force their way into government buildings and declare independence following those events. The AFU responded by attacking DPR and LPR, which has continued since then. What Russia did was in response to that

[ad_orientem]

Okay, I get that it wasn't simply shelling civilians but was attempting to regain territory by force.
As I understand it, the Ukrainian parliament acted unlawfully following the violent demonstrations in Kiev. You can expect people in pro-russian regions to force their way into government buildings and declare independence following those events. The AFU responded by attacking DPR and LPR, which has continued since then. What Russia did was in response to that

RuSSia invaded eastern Ukraine in 2014.

[Dicky Underpants]

It has been on purpose, often with Western-supplied weapons. Last June 13 they shelled a busy maternity hospital.. In April they hit two marketplaces.

Whereas the Russian bombing of the mainly Russian speaking area around Mariupol was 'totally accidental'.
If there were separatist sentiments there before (debatable), there aren't now.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.quora.com/Is-Mariupol-pro-Russian&ved=2ahUKEwiCjcvl2bP9AhUNRkEAHX98BCMQFnoECDgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3UdaM2cETpLFLkko_tqZM8

[jeremyp]

Okay, I get that it wasn't simply shelling civilians but was attempting to regain territory by force.
As I understand it, the Ukrainian parliament acted unlawfully following the violent demonstrations in Kiev. You can expect people in pro-russian regions to force their way into government buildings and declare independence following those events. The AFU responded by attacking DPR and LPR, which has continued since then. What Russia did was in response to that

In the last legitimate referendum all of the regions except Sevastopol voted quite heavily in favour of being part of Ukraine, not Russia.

The pro Russia regions are fictions invented by Russian propagandists.

[Spud]

In the last legitimate referendum all of the regions except Sevastopol voted quite heavily in favour of being part of Ukraine, not Russia.

The pro Russia regions are fictions invented by Russian propagandists.

By 'pro-Russian' I mean wanting closer ties with Russia, not wanting to be part of it. Polls taken in 2013 showed the majority in Donbass wanted this.

[Spud]

RuSSia invaded eastern Ukraine in 2014.

In the case of Donbass, this was with the aim of helping it gain independence, not the aim of annexation.

[ad_orientem]

In the case of Donbass, this was with the aim of helping it gain independence, not the aim of annexation.

So, an invasion and illegal. RuSSia is a terrorist state!

[ad_orientem]

Another war crime has come to light today. The ruSSian fascists gunned down an unarmed POW after he defiantly shouted Glory to Ukraine. I won't post the video. My disgust for ruSSia and ruSSians is deeper than ever when I thought it was already as low as it could get. All ruSSians are guilty. Watch this:

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1632477722524938240?t=xaMx6SJOne8aa0BDw_dhCQ&s=19

[Nearly Sane]

Hasn't the Ukraine suffered enough?

[Spud]

Crimea was occupied by Russia in February 2014. That notwithstanding, none of these regions of Ukraine had the authority to make 'collective self-defence agreements' with any foreign nation, and there is no record of any such agreements outside of the Russian statements and the allies they've elevated to positions of 'authority' following their attempted annexations.

Did Ukrainians have the authority to force Yanukovich out without due process? The Donbass regions responded accordingly.

I think I've posted the video below before: it's an interview with Alexander Khodakovsky, who is former commander of Ukraine's Alpha special unit of the Security Service of Ukraine (SBUl now commander of the Donetsk People's Republic's "Vostok" Battalion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOl7Yy7ljwo&t=940s

He explains how the conflict began.