Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 118534 times)

Udayana

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2022, 05:34:53 PM »
Russia can do the same though.
Judging by Syria, I think he will keep it focused on Donetsk and Luhansk and any other regions which seek independence.This was quite predictable, I think the masses of Russian forces are there in case Ukraine attempts to take them back. The only time I can recall us arming a group actually working was the Kurds against Isis, who were a relatively small army and also up against Nato and Russia.
If your shop is being robbed it's best to give the robbers what they want and if the police cannot catch them, cut your losses then strengthen your security: if Putin is satisfied with these regions and goes away, let the rest of Ukraine join Nato and the EU as a security measure. Then have and agreement with Russia not to mass armament near the border.

I feel that Putin will not be satisfied whatever gains he makes, and has plans for every eventuality  - certainly he would not let the "rest of Ukraine" join anyone let alone Nato and the EU.
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2022, 11:15:47 AM »
Everybody seems to be thinking this will be a walkover for Putin. It won't be.

You've got an army consisting of conscripts who have no reason or desire to die for their leader's ambition up against a well equipped army that is highly motivated to defend its homeland. Yes, the Russians outnumber the Ukrainians, but it will still be a long and bloody war. Ukraine doesn't have mountains but it does have a lot of marshland which failed to freeze this year. That makes them impassable for tank columns.

In the meantime, Russia will be economically squeezed to death by sanctions. If it can't sell its gas, it has no income. More importantly (from Putin's pov), if its oligarchs can't do business, they are going to be very unhappy. Putin is desperate.

Here's a YouTube video that summarises the situation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQXwreYzJ40
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The Accountant, OBE, KC

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2022, 10:55:22 AM »
Some people are calling for the British military to get involved - they don't seem to realise how small the British army is and how few resources it has.

This reminds me of a book my daughter gave a while back as a birthday present - "2017 War with Russia" by Richard Shirreff. Anyone read it? It's badly written as fiction but the author is a retired British Nato general who wrote it based on his own experiences of war-gaming while in NATO. He was warning about how Russia will invade Ukraine and other Baltic states on some pretext and how we have limited options in response as our army is so small and underfunded so we would not be able to take on the Russian army's much greater numbers.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2022, 11:00:19 AM by Violent Gabriella »
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2022, 11:05:47 AM »
Quote
Some people are calling for the British military to get involved - they don't seem to realise how small the British army is and how few resources it has.

Perhaps people are being misled by Ben Wallace (another shiting star in the Tory firmament):

"Ben Wallace said there are 1,000 British military personnel on stand-by to respond to the Ukraine crisis, adding: "The Scots Guards kicked the backside of Tsar Nicholas I in 1853 in Crimea - we can always do it again."

Fucking useless and appalling, I despair.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2022, 11:36:02 AM »
Some people are calling for the British military to get involved - they don't seem to realise how small the British army is and how few resources it has.

This reminds me of a book my daughter gave a while back as a birthday present - "2017 War with Russia" by Richard Shirreff. Anyone read it? It's badly written as fiction but the author is a retired British Nato general who wrote it based on his own experiences of war-gaming while in NATO. He was warning about how Russia will invade Ukraine and other Baltic states on some pretext and how we have limited options in response as our army is so small and underfunded so we would not be able to take on the Russian army's much greater numbers.

Even if the UK had the numbers and the hardware it would be too big a risk, both possessing nuclear weapons. None of us really know what Putin is capable of and that's what makes him dangerous. Russia has rightly been condemned for this and hopefully sanctions will do their job (beyond that I'm not sure what more can be done) but this is in part also a failure of the West to genuinely engage with Russia (though Russia never makes that easy as you always need to read between the lines) . Even if Putin wasn't in power I still think Ukraine potentially joining NATO would be too big a pill for Russia to swallow.

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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #55 on: February 24, 2022, 12:07:22 PM »
Even if the UK had the numbers and the hardware it would be too big a risk, both possessing nuclear weapons. None of us really know what Putin is capable of and that's what makes him dangerous.
I think he's a desperate man and the invasion is a desperate act.
Quote
Russia has rightly been condemned for this and hopefully sanctions will do their job (beyond that I'm not sure what more can be done)
We can supply weapons and training to the Ukrainians.
Quote
but this is in part also a failure of the West to genuinely engage with Russia (though Russia never makes that easy as you always need to read between the lines) . Even if Putin wasn't in power I still think Ukraine potentially joining NATO would be too big a pill for Russia to swallow.
This is true. Since the Second World War, Russia has been absolutely paranoid about anything that looks like a threat on their borders. I think we could have acceded to Russia's demand not to let the Ukraine join NATO, it was never going to happen anyway.
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #56 on: February 24, 2022, 02:03:37 PM »
I think he's a desperate man and the invasion is a desperate act.

Perhaps, perhaps not. He knows that an accommodation will have to be reached, and that he won't be able to hold on to the whole of the Ukraine, but a significant portion of resource rich lands will give him an economic boost that he needs, and politically standing up to the West will make for good TV back home.

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I think we could have acceded to Russia's demand not to let the Ukraine join NATO, it was never going to happen anyway.

That was always a pretext. Putin know that by making that a public demand there was no way Western leaders were ever going to sign up to it - they wouldn't allow themselves to appear to be so obviously letting a third party tell them what alliances they could or could not enter into.

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Udayana

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #57 on: February 24, 2022, 02:17:20 PM »
Everybody seems to be thinking this will be a walkover for Putin. It won't be.

You've got an army consisting of conscripts who have no reason or desire to die for their leader's ambition up against a well equipped army that is highly motivated to defend its homeland. Yes, the Russians outnumber the Ukrainians, but it will still be a long and bloody war. Ukraine doesn't have mountains but it does have a lot of marshland which failed to freeze this year. That makes them impassable for tank columns.

Well the Ukrainians can try and resist, but the longer the resistance the more civilian deaths and other destruction. The West can supply weapons but this time we don't have a Mujahidin army to fight this for us.
 
Quote
In the meantime, Russia will be economically squeezed to death by sanctions. If it can't sell its gas, it has no income. More importantly (from Putin's pov), if its oligarchs can't do business, they are going to be very unhappy. Putin is desperate.
...

There's currently a lot of outrage at the invasion and bluster about punitive sanctions - no doubt they could damage Russia economically - but these would take a long time to have any effect even if some of the nations involved weren't already arguing to hold the most hard hitting back (eg Swift exclusion and oil/gas imports). If the conflict lasts more than a year or so many of those implemented will start to be rolled back - as they also affect our economies and Putin implements counter strategies.

Johnson is making a lot of noise now but as the next election (if he gets that far) comes into viewing distance he will claim victory and let any sanctions that affect us significantly, slide.  After all what is more important - suffering in Europe or his own place on the pile?
 
 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2022, 02:26:58 PM by Udayana »
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Udayana

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #58 on: February 24, 2022, 02:54:53 PM »
BBC assessment of Ukraine defence difficulties.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60492860
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #59 on: February 24, 2022, 06:30:10 PM »
Perhaps, perhaps not. He knows that an accommodation will have to be reached, and that he won't be able to hold on to the whole of the Ukraine, but a significant portion of resource rich lands will give him an economic boost that he needs, and politically standing up to the West will make for good TV back home.
The resource rich lands won't help him much if he can't sell them. Russia isn't short of resources anyway. You are right that this will help his image domestically, in the short term. However, the Russian economy is in the toilet and his people are already noticing. That's why he's doing this.
[/quote]

Well the Ukrainians can try and resist, but the longer the resistance the more civilian deaths and other destruction. The West can supply weapons but this time we don't have a Mujahidin army to fight this for us.

No, we have the Ukrainians. Do you think it's some tin pot little country? It's the seventh largest in Europe by population and the fourth largest geographically.
Quote
There's currently a lot of outrage at the invasion and bluster about punitive sanctions - no doubt they could damage Russia economically - but these would take a long time to have any effect even if some of the nations involved weren't already arguing to hold the most hard hitting back (eg Swift exclusion and oil/gas imports). If the conflict lasts more than a year or so many of those implemented will start to be rolled back - as they also affect our economies and Putin implements counter strategies.

If the conflict lasts a year or more, Putin is utterly screwed. The bodies will be piling up. The economy (already in the toilet) will be completely fucked.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2022, 06:53:36 PM »
Since the Second World War, Russia has been absolutely paranoid about anything that looks like a threat on their borders. I think we could have acceded to Russia's demand not to let the Ukraine join NATO, it was never going to happen anyway.

Agreed. Russia is paranoid. The threat it perceives is mostly imaginary but surely the West must have known this would be the outcome? Otherwise it was a massive miscalculation on our part. Genuine willingness to address this issue on our part may have prevented this but then who knows. If my brother had been a bird he'd have been my sister. What Putin is doing is still wrong.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2022, 07:16:20 PM »
It's amazing how he lied saying they had no plans to invade.

How wrong was I thinking they would only invade Donbas. I must say I hope Ukraine will surrender soon.

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2022, 07:20:20 PM »
It's amazing how he lied saying they had no plans to invade.

How wrong was I thinking they would only invade Donbas. I must say I hope Ukraine will surrender soon.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2022, 07:22:02 PM »
It's also amazing how right Biden was.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2022, 07:23:22 PM »
Because you support Might is Right
No, because I don't want to see any more killing.

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2022, 07:24:42 PM »
No, because I don't want to see any more killing.
Which leads to Might is Right

Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2022, 07:25:13 PM »
No, because I don't want to see any more killing.

So if we were attacked by a country with more military strength than us you would expect us to surrender?
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2022, 07:33:08 PM »
No, because I don't want to see any more killing.

They're not going to give up without a fight. With that logic you could just demand land on the basis of military superiority. We both know it doesn't work like that though.
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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2022, 08:19:34 PM »
? ? ?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2022, 08:27:02 PM by Nearly Sane »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2022, 08:35:06 PM »
Kyiv, you were defeated, I won the war


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-60514388

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2022, 09:55:33 PM »
They're not going to give up without a fight. With that logic you could just demand land on the basis of military superiority. We both know it doesn't work like that though.
I'm not saying war is never the right option. You have to weigh up your chances of overpowering an enemy though. Without NATO's military assistance (no fly zone at the very least) and I suggest China on board, it's suicidal for Ukraine to resist.

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #71 on: February 24, 2022, 10:21:38 PM »
The resource rich lands won't help him much if he can't sell them.

Politics being what it is, though, how long are those markets going to keep sanctions in place? And there are growing African markets which may or may not implement sanctions, and China appears to be sitting on the fence on this one at the moment - who have their own resources, but might see a benefit in buying Russian/Ukrainian stock just to show the West that they can.

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Russia isn't short of resources anyway.

I'm not that up to speed on Russia's remaining stocks of  things (I've only been reading in any depth about Ukraine's this week), but I'm given to understand that the Ukrainian resources are being gathered with up-to-date technology in a way that Russian supplies aren't? May well be wrong on that, though, just an impression I got from bits and pieces here and there.

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You are right that this will help his image domestically, in the short term. However, the Russian economy is in the toilet and his people are already noticing. That's why he's doing this.

So he'll tighten their belts for them, and then blame it on the unfair sanctions imposed by Western forces trying to keep their historic lands from them... and, with the media in his pocket there, it'll probably work, at least for a while.

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No, we have the Ukrainians. Do you think it's some tin pot little country? It's the seventh largest in Europe by population and the fourth largest geographically.

It is, some of that is the problem. There's an enormous border to spread those soldiers around, and it's a large country by population it isn't an enormously military country - they are outnumbered badly. Russian investment in military spending is significant, and although their equipment isn't top notch, it's geared towards an occupation, and it plays to Russia's strengths. Ukraine has been given/sold a fair amount in recent times, but they're both generally less experienced and not experienced in that weaponry.

And then there's the loyalty question - part of the problem in Eastern Ukraine is that there is a significant minority that favour returning to the Russian sphere of influence rather than cozying up to the West. How many of those are going to be in the military, how many of them are going to operate as a fifth column behind any Ukrainian front? That's a question that I've not seen many places even asking, let alone trying to come up with sensible answers.

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If the conflict lasts a year or more, Putin is utterly screwed. The bodies will be piling up. The economy (already in the toilet) will be completely fucked.

And he knows that. He's going to push for an expanded occupation of the Eastern Ukrainian regions already disputed, rig elections there to justify his presence, then concede to demands for a ceasefire and see what he can keep hold of. The West, desperate to look like peacemakers, will concede for the headline of bringing the madman to heel, and he'll restock and then try it again in six or seven years time.

O.
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Alan Burns

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #72 on: February 24, 2022, 10:53:10 PM »
I note that president Biden, as a committed Roman Catholic, has turned to God in prayer concerning the war and its consequences for the Ukraine people - and the rest of the world.

The bible does indeed show that God's power can intervene through prayer.  But if you study the texts, you will see that prayer coupled with repentance is the most effective way of invoking God's supernatural power.

I would hope that Biden would repent for his continued support for the murder of millions of innocent children in their own mother's womb in order to make his prayers more effective.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2022, 05:59:25 AM »
I'm not saying war is never the right option. You have to weigh up your chances of overpowering an enemy though. Without NATO's military assistance (no fly zone at the very least) and I suggest China on board, it's suicidal for Ukraine to resist.
 

In that case Finland should have given Russia our country in 1939. Despite being badly equiped and being outnumbered 10:1 we still saved our country.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2022, 07:27:59 AM »
BTW why does everyone use Kyiv nowadays? What was wrong with Kiev? How the bloody hell are you even meant to pronounce Kyiv? These kind of things vex me.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2022, 07:32:32 AM by ad_orientem »
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