Arming the Ukrainians

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

I'm not saying war is never the right option. You have to weigh up your chances of overpowering an enemy though. Without NATO's military assistance (no fly zone at the very least) and I suggest China on board, it's suicidal for Ukraine to resist.

Depends on the soldiers - some people prefer to die than to surrender as they consider there is honour in dying fighting for a cause e.g. refusing to surrender the freedom of your country or culture or way of life.

Humans come up with interesting abstract concepts like honour - they believe in honour even though there will be some / many people who won't think of it as honourable to die fighting rather than surrender.

 

[Aruntraveller]

The bible does indeed show that God's power can intervene through prayer.  But if you study the texts, you will see that prayer coupled with repentance is the most effective way of invoking God's supernatural power.

I would hope that Biden would repent for his continued support for the murder of millions of innocent children in their own mother's womb in order to make his prayers more effective.

The Bible shows no such thing. It may be written in the Bible. It doesn't mean it is true. I'm sure people throughout the ages have prayed during wars and I am equally sure they ended up dead as a result of those wars.

As to your other point, God is the biggest abortionist.

[jeremyp]

I note that president Biden, as a committed Roman Catholic, has turned to God in prayer concerning the war and its consequences for the Ukraine people - and the rest of the world.

The bible does indeed show that God's power can intervene through prayer.  But if you study the texts, you will see that prayer coupled with repentance is the most effective way of invoking God's supernatural power.

I would hope that Biden would repent for his continued support for the murder of millions of innocent children in their own mother's womb in order to make his prayers more effective.

You mean God is inflicting death and destruction on Ukraine because the USA allows abortion. Your god is an absolute monster.

[The Accountant, OBE, KC]

Speculation about the Ukrainians fighting Russian occupation and if it could turn into another Afghanisatan:
 
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2022/02/24/could-ukraine-be-putins-afghanistan/

There is a price that countries, communities and people pay by resisting - Afghanistan and Pakistan are still struggling with the effects of a Kalashnikov culture that was a result of arms flowing into the countries to resist Soviet occupation of Afghanistan

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1996/03/14/a-kalashnikov-culture/3e32ca0c-7f5d-418b-8280-c581d9bbb384/

And from a 2001 Irish Times article in relation to Afghanistan:

It is all to do with the Pashtun tradition and culture. And it explains a lot about Afghanistan. Pashtuns are a turbulent tribe prone to blood feuds who account for about half of Afghanistan's population of 20 million.

"It is our responsibility and the responsibility of family members to avenge these deaths," he said. "It does not matter how long it takes, even if it takes generations. It is part of our culture."

As four members of his family were killed, a similar number from the other side must also be killed.

He said it was difficult to do anything during Taliban times. Anyone found killing another would have been arrested and executed.

The Kochis felt somewhat safe.

But now that the Taliban are gone, and law is back in the hands of local commanders, the Kochis are petrified.

According to Akahdad Ismailzai, a psychologist in Nanghahar University in Jalalabad, Afghanistan is in the grip of a "Kalashnikov culture".

The breakdown in law and order in Afghanistan is due to years of war. Revenge is now part of the culture of this country.

Before the Soviet war, he said between five per cent and 10 per cent of the population would have lived by the law of vengeance.

He estimated that now most of the people of the country are prepared to take revenge by killing.

"There is no security here in Afghanistan and that has opened the door to chaos," he said.

"If there is no security there is no social contact with people. Human nature is affected by environmental factors. People don't like education. They like Kalashnikovs.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/in-the-grip-of-kalashnikov-culture-1.339091

[Dicky Underpants]

It's amazing how he lied saying they had no plans to invade.

How wrong was I thinking they would only invade Donbas. I must say I hope Ukraine will surrender soon.

The two recordings, supposedly made days apart, show him wearing the same jacket, tie and shirt. One recording states that he won't invade, the other confirming invasion. It's pretty  clear both were made on the same day. He might at least have worn a different tie. Western satirists could make something of this "Economy so bad you can only afford one
jacket eh, Pootie boy?  But I suspect he just doesn't give a damn.
"They lie, they know that they lie, and they know that we know they lie, and they just don't care."

[Sebastian Toe]

I note that president Biden, as a committed Roman Catholic, has turned to God in prayer concerning the war and its consequences for the Ukraine people - and the rest of the world.

The bible does indeed show that God's power can intervene through prayer.  But if you study the texts, you will see that prayer coupled with repentance is the most effective way of invoking God's supernatural power.

I would hope that Biden would repent for his continued support for the murder of millions of innocent children in their own mother's womb in order to make his prayers more effective.

Is his the only prayer that counts?
What if there are many thousands of American RCs also praying for a good outcome and they don't agree with Biden on abortion.

Will your god listen to them?

[Anchorman]

Spud;
Many sincere Christians, whilst never welcoming abortion, nevertheless give thanks that it exists. Without it, orphanages would overflow, and the quality of life of tens, weven hundreds of thousands, would be worse.
There position of AScripture is ambiguous at best: please don't bring it into this thread.

[Anchorman]

 Four U.S. Presidents.
Spot the loony.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/george-bush-putin-russia-ukraine-b2022669.html

[Maeght]

I note that president Biden, as a committed Roman Catholic, has turned to God in prayer concerning the war and its consequences for the Ukraine people - and the rest of the world.

The bible does indeed show that God's power can intervene through prayer.  But if you study the texts, you will see that prayer coupled with repentance is the most effective way of invoking God's supernatural power.

I would hope that Biden would repent for his continued support for the murder of millions of innocent children in their own mother's womb in order to make his prayers more effective.

As others have said, the Bible shows nothing but claims things.

The whole question of people needing to pray for an intervention, how many people need to pray for it to happen, and now why someone needs to repent about another issue in order for prayers to be answered makes no sense to me and I've never heard a reasonable explanation for this set of beliefs.

[Spud]

Spud;
Many sincere Christians, whilst never welcoming abortion, nevertheless give thanks that it exists. Without it, orphanages would overflow, and the quality of life of tens, weven hundreds of thousands, would be worse.
There position of AScripture is ambiguous at best: please don't bring it into this thread.

For your info, it was Alan that brought it up. But I would point out a possible reference to the subject of killing unwanted children in the chapter in Leviticus that prohibits incest: do not offer your children to Molech. This comes right after "Do not sleep with your neighbour's wife", and is possibly an allusion to what people would do if they had a child as a consequence of doing that.

[Spud]

Depends on the soldiers - some people prefer to die than to surrender as they consider there is honour in dying fighting for a cause e.g. refusing to surrender the freedom of your country or culture or way of life.

Humans come up with interesting abstract concepts like honour - they believe in honour even though there will be some / many people who won't think of it as honourable to die fighting rather than surrender.

I think the motivation to fight also comes from anger; I thought this after hearing Captain Tom contrast seeing Spitfires flying nowadays, with seeing them fly over 'in anger' to meet the Luftwaffe. And seeing that Russian tank drive over a car that had someone inside yesterday.

[Spud]

BTW why does everyone use Kyiv nowadays? What was wrong with Kiev? How the bloody hell are you even meant to pronounce Kyiv? These kind of things vex me.

Apparently Kiev is the Russian way of pronouncing it.

[Udayana]

I think the motivation to fight also comes from anger; I thought this after hearing Captain Tom contrast seeing Spitfires flying nowadays, with seeing them fly over 'in anger' to meet the Luftwaffe. And seeing that Russian tank drive over a car that had someone inside yesterday.

I watched that clip on the news - horrific. But the story seems confused - was it a Russian tank? Last I read it was two Ukrainians joy riding in a tank hi-jacked from the Ukrainian army - later captured and shot by the resistance - but it was on twitter. 

[Spud]

 

In that case Finland should have given Russia our country in 1939. Despite being badly equiped and being outnumbered 10:1 we still saved our country.

I don't know my Finnish history, but had a quick look, and it looks as though that war was mainly over a section of border territory, rather than the entire country? Also they had help from Germany after that?

[Udayana]

Home Office in usual form:

 https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/25/charities-urge-uk-to-welcome-refugees-fleeing-ukraine-conflict

Visa applications from Ukraine for people who are not related to British nationals are currently suspended, meaning there is no legal route for them to enter the UK and claim asylum. A source told the BBC the government was “scenario-planning” for an increase in asylum seekers from Ukraine.

Most media carried the news of suspension of Visa applications from Ukraine - but couldn't see this on the BBC site - disconcerting.   

[Harrowby Hall]

It would seem that the world of music has joined the conflict.

The mayor of Munich has informed Valery Gergiev, conductor of the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra, that he will be removed from this post if he does not openly condemn the invasion of Ukraine. He has also been told by La Scala, Milan, that that a forthcoming engagement is now cancelled. Gergiev is known to be a close friend of Putin and each are godfathers of the other's children.

For a number of years, Gergiev was principal conductor of the London Symphony Orchestra.

[SweetPea]

A heart-breaking scene, a father says goodbye to his family so he can join the fight against the Russian aggressors:

https://twitter.com/ChefGruel/status/1496936109145690113

Here brave Russians protest against their government's actions whilst knowing they will be arrested:

https://twitter.com/vincentjbove/status/1496981245661573130

[Dicky Underpants]

It would seem that the world of music has joined the conflict.

The mayor of Munich has informed Valery Gergiev, conductor of the Munich Philharmonic Orchestra, that he will be removed from this post if he does not openly condemn the invasion of Ukraine. He has also been told by La Scala, Milan, that that a forthcoming engagement is now cancelled. Gergiev is known to be a close friend of Putin and each are godfathers of the other's children.

For a number of years, Gergiev was principal conductor of the London Symphony Orchestra.

Astonishing, and sad. But it confirms what I knew but didn't like to admit - fine art has little or no effect on one's moral outlook, and this case absolutely no improving effect on Gergiev's judgment of character.
Good for Italy and Germany for being so decisive though.

[jeremyp]

Breaking news. The Russian invasion was more effective than previously believed.

https://twitter.com/JoePorterUK/status/1497694675850956802?s=20&t=1-FeO1nARjJ2jdbL-RsL7A

Our Prime Minister  @BorisJohnson on the frontline [RAF Brize Norton] with our Armed Forces coordinating the UK's response to the invasion of Ukraine. True global leadership!

Russian tanks have invaded Oxfordshire.

[Nearly Sane]

Good from Alistair Carmichael, and a petition about this


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60541028

https://www.change.org/p/stop-russian-owned-trade-vessels-docking-in-uk-ports?recruiter=12018584&utm_campaign=signature_receipt&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition

[Aruntraveller]

...

[Nearly Sane]

Update from Alistair Carmichael on FB

'Final Score :

Orkney 1 - Putin 0

The berthing of NS Champion which was due to happen at Flotta on Wednesday morning will not now happen.  The shipment has been cancelled and the Secretary of State for Transport has written to all UK ports asking them not to allow access to Russian vessels.  We can expect more regulations in the next day or two to set this in stone.

Let us be quite clear about how this was done.  This was a community acting together in common purpose to ensure that when they said, "We stand with Ukraine", it really meant something.

So a massive thank you and congratulations to everyone who played a part in this.  The people of Ukraine still face a truly dreadful situation but we can at least know tonight that we have in one tiny way, managed to stop it being even worse.'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-60544052

[ad_orientem]

I've been doing a bit of thinking about this and the role of the EU. People here know me for being anti-EU, but for all it's faults all of Europe is coming together to try and deal with this and help Ukraine. I don't think I'll be so critical anymore.

[Spud]

I tuned in to LBC this afternoon and heard a caller say that we need to stop sending weapons and tell Ukraine that we aren't going to come to their aid. He said that because Russia is so powerful they will win, so the West sending lethal aid will only cause more casualties.
Also, it is the view of Lady Colin Campbell that the only solution is to create a buffer zone between Nato and Russia.

[Nearly Sane]

I tuned in to LBC this afternoon and heard a caller say that we need to stop sending weapons and tell Ukraine that we aren't going to come to their aid. He said that because Russia is so powerful they will win, so the West sending lethal aid will only cause more casualties.
It is also the view of Lady Colin Campbell that the only solution is to create a buffer zone between Nato and Russia.

A 'buffer zone' is telling people their views are meaningless.