Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 111003 times)

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7096
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #100 on: March 02, 2022, 05:01:17 PM »
A 'buffer zone' is telling people their views are meaningless.
What she means (I think) is more to do with not allowing states in that zone to be members of NATO. So presumably, this means Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Finland. I don't think that is the same as telling people their views are meaningless?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63769
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #101 on: March 02, 2022, 05:03:55 PM »
What she means (I think) is more to do with not allowing states in that zone to be members of NATO. So presumably, this means Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Finland. I don't think that is the same as telling people their views are meaningless?
You have just said to all the people in those states that their views are meaningless.

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7096
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #102 on: March 02, 2022, 05:05:33 PM »
You have just said to all the people in those states that their views are meaningless.
Views about what?

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63769
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #103 on: March 02, 2022, 05:14:43 PM »
Views about what?
What they choose to do. They can't be members of NATO because you are telling them they are 'buffer states'. Your choice, not their's.

Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10974
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #104 on: March 02, 2022, 05:23:03 PM »
I tuned in to LBC this afternoon and heard a caller say that we need to stop sending weapons and tell Ukraine that we aren't going to come to their aid. He said that because Russia is so powerful they will win, so the West sending lethal aid will only cause more casualties.
Also, it is the view of Lady Colin Campbell that the only solution is to create a buffer zone between Nato and Russia.

You are a little bit in love with Lady Colin Campbell aren't you? Admit it.

You are on the face of it correct sending more weapons is perhaps futile in the short term and will probably result in more death, not less.

However, I think this misses the bigger picture. If Ukraine falls easily you will have an emboldened Putin where the very countries you mentioned will be more at risk rather than less at risk.

If in some way the line is held in Ukraine then a humiliated Putin is in some ways more of a risk than the swaggering bully we are used to.

The West has to face up to its responsibilities for this situation having got this far, by which I mean an expansionist NATO has been worrying Moscow for a long time, this is not to say that Putin isn't a murderous bastard, just that we could have managed things better.

This article goes into some depth on NATO's part in this:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/28/nato-expansion-war-russia-ukraine

There are no good outcomes available now, just the least worst. What that is fuck knows.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5661
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #105 on: March 02, 2022, 06:44:37 PM »
I think the motivation to fight also comes from anger; I thought this after hearing Captain Tom contrast seeing Spitfires flying nowadays, with seeing them fly over 'in anger' to meet the Luftwaffe. And seeing that Russian tank drive over a car that had someone inside yesterday.

I've just watched a section on the BBC News about the people of Ukraine being motivated to fight by their deep religious beliefs - that they are in the right and that God will ensure they win. Any thoughts on that?

ad_orientem

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7906
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #106 on: March 02, 2022, 06:54:11 PM »
What she means (I think) is more to do with not allowing states in that zone to be members of NATO. So presumably, this means Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Finland. I don't think that is the same as telling people their views are meaningless?

Aren't Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania already part of NATO? As for Finland, I hope we don't join, though for obvious reasons it has become a hot topic once again. The worst thing we could do is join through a sense of panic (those all of a sudden saying we should are probably the same people who emptied shop shelves of bog roll early 2020).
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

ad_orientem

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7906
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #107 on: March 02, 2022, 06:57:29 PM »
I've just watched a section on the BBC News about the people of Ukraine being motivated to fight by their deep religious beliefs - that they are in the right and that God will ensure they win. Any thoughts on that?

Personally I see a bit of a Winter War spirit. They know they're probably not going to get much military help but they're still willing to fight against the odds.
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63769
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #108 on: March 02, 2022, 06:59:07 PM »
Aren't Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania already part of NATO? As for Finland, I hope we don't join, though for obvious reasons it has become a hot topic once again. The worst thing we could do is join through a sense of panic (those all of a sudden saying we should are probably the same people who emptied shop shelves of bog roll early 2020).
I'll bet that the overlap between the two groups is relatively small.

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5661
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #109 on: March 02, 2022, 07:01:52 PM »
Personally I see a bit of a Winter War spirit. They know they're probably not going to get much military help but they're still willing to fight against the odds.

Yes, I see that too, but the section on the news spoke to several people who talked about their religious faith being a factor and the journalist suggested that this was a wide spread feeling.

ad_orientem

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7906
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #110 on: March 02, 2022, 07:03:05 PM »
Yes, I see that too, but the section on the news spoke to several people who talked about their religious faith being a factor and the journalist suggested that this was a wide spread feeling.

Probably that as well.
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

ad_orientem

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7906
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #111 on: March 02, 2022, 07:11:23 PM »
https://twitter.com/lapatina_/status/1499012600826322946?t=nIMm7Y0Ub9u99hL0sH4nyQ&s=19

I don't know if any of you have seen this. Poor kid can't be any more than twenty. It appears the majority of Russian troops are just kids, conscripts, with low morale. It seems many went into Ukraine thinking this was still a military exercise, not even knowing where they were going.
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5661
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #112 on: March 02, 2022, 07:21:16 PM »
https://twitter.com/lapatina_/status/1499012600826322946?t=nIMm7Y0Ub9u99hL0sH4nyQ&s=19

I don't know if any of you have seen this. Poor kid can't be any more than twenty. It appears the majority of Russian troops are just kids, conscripts, with low morale. It seems many went into Ukraine thinking this was still a military exercise, not even knowing where they were going.

Very sad. Reminds me of the Paul Hardcastle song about Vietnam.

ad_orientem

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7906
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #113 on: March 02, 2022, 07:27:33 PM »
Very sad. Reminds me of the Paul Hardcastle song about Vietnam.

Yep.
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #114 on: March 02, 2022, 08:36:24 PM »
What they choose to do. They can't be members of NATO because you are telling them they are 'buffer states'. Your choice, not their's.

It seems to me that Ukraine has been a "buffer state" since the breakup of the USSR in the 1990s.

Their whole wellbeing depended on them realizing this and managing their affairs so as to balance or play off the demands of each of the two aggressive/defensive players on each side - to maximise their own benefits. They managed to do that (though not without ups and downs) since then - up until around the takeover of Crimea - becoming both economically better off and more democratic.

However with the new president/government they looked as if they had given up on that understanding and had, maybe as a result of the Crimean invasion and inability to peacefully resolve the insurgency in the SE "Russian" areas, opted for the NATO/EU block.

I think their best hope now is if an intermediary with good understanding of statecraft and Putin can persuade him to stop killing, withdraw and come to an agreement with Ukraine, in both their long term interests.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Aruntraveller

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10974
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #115 on: March 02, 2022, 10:02:12 PM »
Quote
I think their best hope now is if an intermediary with good understanding of statecraft and Putin can persuade him to stop killing, withdraw and come to an agreement with Ukraine, in both their long term interests.

That is optimistic.

Unfortunately, the West appears to be dealing with a Putin who is not the person he was before the pandemic. There are huge questions about his mental state.

That instability makes judging how best to deal with Putin even more difficult.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63769
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #116 on: March 02, 2022, 10:37:54 PM »
It seems to me that Ukraine has been a "buffer state" since the breakup of the USSR in the 1990s.

Their whole wellbeing depended on them realizing this and managing their affairs so as to balance or play off the demands of each of the two aggressive/defensive players on each side - to maximise their own benefits. They managed to do that (though not without ups and downs) since then - up until around the takeover of Crimea - becoming both economically better off and more democratic.

However with the new president/government they looked as if they had given up on that understanding and had, maybe as a result of the Crimean invasion and inability to peacefully resolve the insurgency in the SE "Russian" areas, opted for the NATO/EU block.

I think their best hope now is if an intermediary with good understanding of statecraft and Putin can persuade him to stop killing, withdraw and come to an agreement with Ukraine, in both their long term interests.
So your understanding is that the Ukraine could not choose its future.

SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10208
  • God? She's black.
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #117 on: March 02, 2022, 11:00:56 PM »
The Grauniad suggests that Putin does not want to annex Ukraine, but put in place a Russia-friendly puppet government and then leave.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5661
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #118 on: March 03, 2022, 06:40:19 AM »
Yes, that's been suggested elsewhere before. The suggestion I read was that he wants to create a federal set up to weaken Ukraine as a nation. More likely than a complete occupation I would think.

Udayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5478
  • βε ηερε νοω
    • The Byrds - My Back Pages
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #119 on: March 03, 2022, 09:53:25 AM »
So your understanding is that the Ukraine could not choose its future.

Not sure what you mean .. why couldn't they choose? They can choose independence/neutrality or to align with one side/block or another?

They can't choose whether they are a buffer state or not, which they have been, more or less, since being taken over by the Lithuanians in the 14th century.
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7096
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #120 on: March 03, 2022, 12:24:47 PM »
If it would put NATO countries at greater risk then I think it is our choice as to whether they join or not.
The current arrangement, where we supply arms to them, seems a good in between, or at least it would if with that help they are strong enough to repel the enemy.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2022, 02:09:53 PM by Spud »

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32249
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #121 on: March 03, 2022, 05:52:08 PM »
I tuned in to LBC this afternoon and heard a caller say that we need to stop sending weapons and tell Ukraine that we aren't going to come to their aid. He said that because Russia is so powerful they will win
I think they've already lost.

Quote
, so the West sending lethal aid will only cause more casualties.
That's war for you.

There would have been fewer casualties if Britain had kept out of WW2.
Quote
Also, it is the view of Lady Colin Campbell that the only solution is to create a buffer zone between Nato and Russia.

Putin doesn't care about buffer zones. He wants the Soviet Union back.

Also, Poland already borders Belarus. The buffer zone is gone.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7096
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #122 on: March 04, 2022, 08:24:59 AM »
I think they've already lost.
Really, you think Russia has lost? Okay I can see how that could turn out to be the case, though I wouldn't say they have literally lost, yet. And I think there is a chance that they might, Lord forbid, flatten the whole country. In which case they would have won, but then have to face the music of ongoing sanctions.

Quote
That's war for you.
There would have been fewer casualties if Britain had kept out of WW2.
Okay; question: in hindsight, is this ever the right course of action?

Quote
Putin doesn't care about buffer zones. He wants the Soviet Union back.
Yes, I think we have to assume that. He has seen the West's military mistakes and reluctance to be involved in more war, and knows he can be aggressive without them opposing directly, militarily.

Quote
Also, Poland already borders Belarus. The buffer zone is gone.
Yes - I was speaking in terms of an ideal, I know it isn't likely to happen.

So the questions now are, how do we avoid this happening again, and what do we do if Russia tries to take back the Baltic states?

This could be an opportunity to see how well the strategy of completely isolating a rogue state that invades another state, works. Instead of supplying the invaded country with weapons, if they were to surrender and every single country in the free world imposes almighty sanctions. If that can work, would we need NATO? Perhaps this principle could take the place of mutual military defense and 2% GDP spent on the military? To get rid of Putin requires action from within Russia.
Just an idea.

As to what happens now in Ukraine, I have been thinking about AD70 and how the Jews believed that God would deliver them from the Romans. In the end there was mass slaughter. A high priest had tried to get the Jews to surrender the city of Jerusalem, and this would surely have been the right thing to do.

The Roman empire eventually fell.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2022, 08:33:11 AM by Spud »

ad_orientem

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7906
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #123 on: March 04, 2022, 08:59:28 AM »
Sometimes the only right thing to do is stand and fight. Sometimes you just have to confront a dictator, just like you would a playground bully. Otherwise they feel they're getting stronger and stronger and can get away with anything.
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7096
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #124 on: March 04, 2022, 09:18:03 AM »
Sometimes the only right thing to do is stand and fight. Sometimes you just have to confront a dictator, just like you would a playground bully.
In that case I would expect the other people in the playground to step in? I've seen a strong kid fighting with a weak kid who decided he would take him on, and nobody stepped in. Having been quite badly punched, the weak kid didn't get into more fights after that.
Quote
Otherwise they feel they're getting stronger and stronger and can get away with anything.
Not if people don't have anything to do with that bully?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2022, 09:26:46 AM by Spud »