Arming the Ukrainians

[Anchorman]

Sometimes the only right thing to do is stand and fight. Sometimes you just have to confront a dictator, just like you would a playground bully. Otherwise they feel they're getting stronger and stronger and can get away with anything.

   
My problem is the folk crushed underfoot in the fight. Is the fight worth the deaths of so many innocents?

[Aruntraveller]

In that case I would expect the other people in the playground to step in? I've seen a strong kid fighting with a weak kid who decided he would take him on, and nobody stepped in. Having been quite badly punched, the weak kid didn't get into more fights after that.  Not if people don't have anything to do with that bully?

Fortunately, school playground bullies don't carry around nuclear weapons in their school satchel.

[jeremyp]

Really, you think Russia has lost?

In global terms yes. They might take over the whole of Ukraine, but it will be a very costly occupation. However, their economy is now crippled and they can no longer do international sport or even travel freely. Also, we've found out that their military isn't up to much either.

If Putin wanted to increase Russia's standing on the world stage, he has utterly failed.

As to what happens now in Ukraine, I have been thinking about AD70 and how the Jews believed that God would deliver them from the Romans. In the end there was mass slaughter. A high priest had tried to get the Jews to surrender the city of Jerusalem, and this would surely have been the right thing to do.

The Roman empire eventually fell.

The Ukrainians are not relying on God to deliver them.

[ad_orientem]

   
My problem is the folk crushed underfoot in the fight. Is the fight worth the deaths of so many innocents?

You'd have to ask the Ukrainian people that. From what has been reported, at least, it seems freedom is something they're willing to risk their lives for.

[ad_orientem]

As to what happens now in Ukraine, I have been thinking about AD70 and how the Jews believed that God would deliver them from the Romans. In the end there was mass slaughter. A high priest had tried to get the Jews to surrender the city of Jerusalem, and this would surely have been the right thing to do.

The Roman empire eventually fell.

So Ukraine should just stop fighting and except a puppet president the people have already rejected twice?

[Outrider]

My problem is the folk crushed underfoot in the fight. Is the fight worth the deaths of so many innocents?

How would it be better for them to be crushed underfoot without a fight?

O.

[Spud]

Fortunately, school playground bullies don't carry around nuclear weapons in their school satchel.

I think we should assume that Russia would use nuclear weapons; NATO, rightly, doesn't appear willing to risk using them against Russia, it would mean a nuclear exchange and catastrophe. So the concept of NATO doesn't solve the problem we are now faced with. That's why I'm thinking about how else it can be solved. I'm open to being proved wrong.
So we have a nuclear-armed state invading a sovereign neighbour.
Due to the latter's resistance, it is now shelling civilians. We are making this situation worse by encouraging the underdog to fight (while not being able to engage Russia directly).
Remember that the Russian conscripts apparently don't want this, but apparently they have no choice. So by carrying on fighting they are getting them killed too.
If Ukraine agrees to Russia's terms, they will live - I think that is clear.
I would rather plough my fields under an occupier who is being punished with sanctions than be blown up along with my family.

[Anchorman]

How would it be better for them to be crushed underfoot without a fight?

O.

   
As I get older, I'm more and more inclined toward pacifism.

[ad_orientem]

I think we should assume that Russia would use nuclear weapons; NATO, rightly, doesn't appear willing to risk using them against Russia, it would mean a nuclear exchange and catastrophe. So the concept of NATO doesn't solve the problem we are now faced with. That's why I'm thinking about how else it can be solved. I'm open to being proved wrong.
So we have a nuclear-armed state invading a sovereign neighbour.
Due to the latter's resistance, it is now shelling civilians. We are making this situation worse by encouraging the underdog to fight (while not being able to engage Russia directly).
Remember that the Russian conscripts apparently don't want this, but apparently they have no choice. So by carrying on fighting they are getting them killed too.
If Ukraine agrees to Russia's terms, they will live - I think that is clear.
I would rather plough my fields under an occupier who is being punished with sanctions than be blown up along with my family.

That's you. Others prefer to die fighting so they can be free. Maybe it's time to call Putin's bluff.

[Spud]

That's you. Others preserves to die fighting so they can be free. Maybe it's time to call Putin's bluff.

That's their choice. A year ago I personally experienced an injury, an accident, but equivalent to a war injury, and I can assure you it is better to keep your body intact. Or, I'm curious, do you think this is a salvation issue?

[ad_orientem]

That's their choice. A year ago I personally experienced an injury, an accident, but equivalent to a war injury, and I can assure you it is better to keep your body intact. Or, I'm curious, do you think this is a salvation issue?

No. I just think freedom is better than bondage. Better to die a free man than live as a slave.

[Outrider]

As I get older, I'm more and more inclined toward pacifism.

That doesn't explain how  it would be any better, though. The same oppression, but without the measure of self-respect that comes from 'at least I did something'?

O.

[Spud]

No. I just think freedom is better than bondage. Better to die a free man than live as a slave.

Do you think Russia wants to enslave Ukraine?

[Aruntraveller]

Do you think Russia wants to enslave Ukraine?

They want to control it. To bend it to their will. I think that comes close to enslavement.

[Spud]

They want to control it. To bend it to their will. I think that comes close to enslavement.

Maybe. But does that justify going to war? What about either submitting or leaving the country, given that we have multinational sanctions on them.

[Aruntraveller]

Meanwhile a reminder that even though Raab, Patel, Johnson say we are at the forefront of sanctions, we pretty much aren't. So no change in the lying from the government. Still, got to give them 10 out of 10 for consistency.

[Aruntraveller]

Maybe. But does that justify going to war? What about either submitting or leaving the country, given that we have multinational sanctions on them.

Well, it was Russia that actually went to war.

Ukraine just responded as a sovereign nation.

Yea, just submit and live under a repressive regime or leave your homeland. It's so easy isn't it?

[Spud]

Well, it was Russia that actually went to war.

Ok, but as I understand it, the people of Donbass voted for independence, right?

Ukraine just responded as a sovereign nation.

Yea, just submit and live under a repressive regime or leave your homeland. It's so easy isn't it?

Yes, when it's that or be blown to bits. And have you read the poem by Wilfred Owen, Dulce et Decorum est?

[Aruntraveller]

Yes, when it's that or be blown to bits. And have you read the poem by Wilfred Owen, Dulce et Decorum est?

I've read that poem. Excellent though it is, it is not a guide to how to deal with this situation. War is fucking horrible, we know that. Pacifism only works if everyone is singing from the same hymn sheet about not killing. That will not be the case with the Russians. The Ukrainians have been invaded by a foreign country, I'm having trouble seeing why you aren't getting their determination to stand up for their country.

Maybe they fear if they give in worse will be to follow from Putin and his cronies. You do know that Russia has a long and very bloody record of how they deal with any opposition to their "state". This is a characteristic that goes back centuries. It is entirely possible that some Ukrainians have indeed decided that they would rather get blown to bits.

[Aruntraveller]

Ok, but as I understand it, the people of Donbass voted for independence, right?

Yes, they did in a referendum that not even Russia recognised. It appears to have been beset by all kinds of problems being both unconstitutional and subject to fraud.

Details here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Donbas_status_referendums

[Spud]

Trent, I am getting it but I also think they are assuming tin-of-poo won't use his nuclear arsenal. What if he does? I'm just interested in this strategy of sanctions, I didn't think imuch of it until I realised it may be the only thing that can stop tin Man.

[Aruntraveller]

Trent, I am getting it but I also think they are assuming tin-of-poo won't use his nuclear arsenal. What if he does? I'm just interested in this strategy of sanctions, I didn't think imuch of it until I realised it may be the only thing that can stop tin Man.

I agree that sanctions are all we can do right now (which is why I highlighted our government's pathetic record). Do any more than sanctions and you are inviting disaster, even that is very risky. Why?

I think it unlikely he will use his nuclear arsenal directly against Ukraine, it is too close to home. What is more disturbing is the prospect of the North Sea option, which goes something like this - Sanctions and continued Ukrainian resistance forces Putin into a corner. He plays the nuclear option and explodes a warhead over the North Sea between us and Denmark and then just waits to see how the chips fall.

Sound unlikely? Not to me. We are not dealing with a rational mind. Our best hope is removal fairly quickly from within, which unfortunately looks unlikely currently.

Aren't I just the perfect ray of sunshine this Friday afternoon?

[SteveH]

Meanwhile a reminder that even though Raab, Patel, Johnson say we are at the forefront of sanctions, we pretty much aren't. So no change in the lying from the government. Still, got to give them 10 out of 10 for consistency.

It depends on how many Russian entities a country has got that it can sanction.

[Anchorman]

They want to control it. To bend it to their will. I think that comes close to enslavement.

   


No, TV, it doesn't.
These islands have three centuries of testemonial.

[Aruntraveller]

   


No, TV, it doesn't.
These islands have three centuries of testemonial.

I realise you have your views about Scotland's place in the world. They are your views. Other views are held even within your own country.

I'm not sure it adds anything to the discussion of the situation in Ukraine. And when I say I'm not sure, I really mean I'm absolutely sure it adds nothing.