Arming the Ukrainians

[Udayana]

I'm beginning to be more and more of the opinion that we have to intervene. Ukraine is putting up a good defence but how long can they hold out? On the plus side, I read a report in the Finnish media that Russia's military hardware was meant to be updated but most of the money was stolen and spent on luxury yachts etc.

My opinion is that we, meaning all countries able to contribute, should help Ukraine in every way possible that does not carry a high risk of widening the conflict or making it worse. Zelenski and his people have taken a particular path knowing that other countries would not be able to launch military attacks if Russia invaded. At best Nato could try and draw "a line in the sand" and warn Putin that if it is crossed they will enforce it militarily. Maybe cessation of shelling of the civilian population?
 
Nato has had much time to prepare and make critical moves that might have prevented Putin starting a war, but did not take them. It is notable that the invasion began with Biden rather than Trump in the White House.

Crimea was taken over in 2014 with a war, against essentially alienated separatist groups and other Russian agents in the Donbass region, continuing since then. We know how Putin works, he does something bad and waits for a reaction, if nothing happens he goes on with something worse. Obama and Trump did very little. Biden warned about imminent invasion but was not prepared to help defend Ukraine by even threatening military action when Russian troops moved into the SE region. Nato should have made sure that Putin knew that if he moved troops in they would provide direct military support to Ukraine to defend its borders.   

[jeremyp]

I'm beginning to be more and more of the opinion that we have to intervene.

Let's be clear: any NATO country intervening militarily would lead to a general war in Europe. Even if it doesn't go nuclear, it will make the war in Ukraine look like a picnic.

Frankly, I think what we are doing now will turn out to be enough in the long term, even if the Ukrainian military response collapses.

Ukraine is putting up a good defence but how long can they hold out?

Longer than Russia IMO.

On the plus side, I read a report in the Finnish media that Russia's military hardware was meant to be updated but most of the money was stolen and spent on luxury yachts etc.

I'm sure this is true. Also, a lot of the diesel that seems to be missing from the Russian logistical effort probably went into Russian agriculture.

[Udayana]

...
Frankly, I think what we are doing now will turn out to be enough in the long term, even if the Ukrainian military response collapses.
...

I don't really get this. What is "enough"? How is success to be evaluated? Is success independent of the cost in lives, ruined economies and cities?

If success means "freedom" what does that  mean, did they have it before the invasion?

[jeremyp]

I don't really get this. What is "enough"? How is success to be evaluated?

Withdrawal of Russia from Ukraine.

As a bonus, Russia has shown itself to be a hollow shell of a super power and this probably signals the end of Putin.

Is success independent of the cost in lives, ruined economies and cities?

No.

If success means "freedom" what does that  mean, did they have it before the invasion?

Yes.

[Dicky Underpants]

If success means "freedom" what does that  mean, did they have it before the invasion?

I can only go on what a good friend, who lived there for over a year tells me. The answer is unquestionably "Yes".

I view with horror the vision of future Ukrainian society under Russian occupation, as "Comrade Clueless", Maria Butina depicted things this morning. She seems to think that the ideal state is one where all information and ideas are state controlled. She also asserted to Nick Robinson on Radio 4 that the Ukrainians were bombing their own cities and civilians because "Russian forces don't do this". Obviously not one accustomed to dealing with reality, though I understand she has a degree from an American university. Probably Dodge City, given her obsession with guns.

[Udayana]

I can only go on what a good friend, who lived there for over a year tells me. The answer is unquestionably "Yes".

I view with horror the vision of future Ukrainian society under Russian occupation, as "Comrade Clueless", Maria Butina depicted things this morning. She seems to think that the ideal state is one where all information and ideas are state controlled. She also asserted to Nick Robinson on Radio 4 that the Ukrainians were bombing their own cities and civilians because "Russian forces don't do this". Obviously not one accustomed to dealing with reality, though I understand she has a degree from an American university. Probably Dodge City, given her obsession with guns.

I heard that interview and found it astonishing. On the face of it she seemed to genuinely believe the reports being fed to Russians by the national media. But looking at her history,
 (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Butina)
it is clear that she must be well aware of the false reports and rationale being propagated as true within Russia and was also party to the new laws making the reporting of "fake news" illegal. 
She is lying, presumably for her own career or security reasons.

[Nearly Sane]

Really, William?

[Aruntraveller]

Really, William?

One day he will be our monarch in all likelihood. What a pleasure it is to have someone with such a firm grasp of history to be so close to the throne.

All ties in with the racism already discussed here.

[jeremyp]

Really, William?

Do you think you can write out the quote for the benefit of Susan and Anchorman?

[jeremyp]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60690362


Roman Ambramovich has been sanctioned and will have all his assets frozen just as soon as he's moved the important ones out of the UK or sold them /sarcasm.

[jeremyp]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60690362


Roman Ambramovich has been sanctioned and will have all his assets frozen just as soon as he's moved the important ones out of the UK or sold them /sarcasm.

Seems I was at least partially wrong with my cynicism. Abramovich has had all his assets frozen including Chelsea. I added a comment to the Football thread because discussing the effects on Chelsea FC in footballing terms seems more appropriate over there.

[SteveH]

Really, William?

Yes, really. There haven't been any wars in Europe since the former Yugoslavian wars ended, and before that none or very few since 1945.

[Dicky Underpants]

Yes, really. There haven't been any wars in Europe since the former Yugoslavian wars ended, and before that none or very few since 1945.

But not alien to us (W's words).

[Outrider]

Yes, really. There haven't been any wars in Europe since the former Yugoslavian wars ended, and before that none or very few since 1945.

Greek civil war in late 40's, coup in 1960s. Various guerrilla conflicts in the Balkans throughout the early 1950s. Cypriot war of independence, Turkish invasion of Cyprus. Hungarian revolution. Northern Ireland conflict. Invasion of Czechoslovakia. Portuguese revolution. Nagorno-Karabakh. Romanian revolution. Soviet invasion of Lithuania. Break-up of Yugoslavia (Kosovo if you consider that separate). Georgian/Russian conflict, Abkhazi separatist movement and the Georgian civil war. Both Chechen war. Azerbaijani coup. Chechen invasion of Dagestan. Macedonian insurgency. Both Russia's invasions of Ukraine.

Those are just the conflicts geographically within Europe that I can recall, that's not including conflicts involving European forces elsewhere (i.e. Falklands, Afghanistan) or the various proxy conflicts of Russia during the Cold War....

O.

[SteveH]

Greek civil war in late 40's, coup in 1960s. Various guerrilla conflicts in the Balkans throughout the early 1950s. Cypriot war of independence, Turkish invasion of Cyprus. Hungarian revolution. Northern Ireland conflict. Invasion of Czechoslovakia. Portuguese revolution. Nagorno-Karabakh. Romanian revolution. Soviet invasion of Lithuania. Break-up of Yugoslavia (Kosovo if you consider that separate). Georgian/Russian conflict, Abkhazi separatist movement and the Georgian civil war. Both Chechen war. Azerbaijani coup. Chechen invasion of Dagestan. Macedonian insurgency. Both Russia's invasions of Ukraine.

Those are just the conflicts geographically within Europe that I can recall, that's not including conflicts involving European forces elsewhere (i.e. Falklands, Afghanistan) or the various proxy conflicts of Russia during the Cold War....

O.

OK, I was wrong.

[jeremyp]

Greek civil war in late 40's, coup in 1960s. Various guerrilla conflicts in the Balkans throughout the early 1950s. Cypriot war of independence, Turkish invasion of Cyprus. Hungarian revolution. Northern Ireland conflict. Invasion of Czechoslovakia. Portuguese revolution. Nagorno-Karabakh. Romanian revolution. Soviet invasion of Lithuania. Break-up of Yugoslavia (Kosovo if you consider that separate). Georgian/Russian conflict, Abkhazi separatist movement and the Georgian civil war. Both Chechen war. Azerbaijani coup. Chechen invasion of Dagestan. Macedonian insurgency. Both Russia's invasions of Ukraine.

Those are just the conflicts geographically within Europe that I can recall, that's not including conflicts involving European forces elsewhere (i.e. Falklands, Afghanistan) or the various proxy conflicts of Russia during the Cold War....

O.

But if you wrote a similar list for Asia or Africa, it wlould likely be longer and contain many more in the 21st century.

[Dicky Underpants]

But if you wrote a similar list for Asia or Africa, it wlould likely be longer and contain many more in the 21st century.

Is this a competition? War is not alien to 20th and 21st century Europe, whatever may have happened elsewhere.

[Dicky Underpants]

In view of Sergei Lavrov's latest breathtaking batch of lies, I thought I'd post a link to this rather good article about the gargoyle-faced piece of shit. Hope it works.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://nationalpost.com/opinion/michael-colborne-russias-bald-faced-lies/wcm/9eee5628-6ed2-430e-ae09-4b377ff02d15/amp/&ved=2ahUKEwictcLL6Lv2AhXRUMAKHX4yDwYQFnoECBQQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0rzjaoRlYbvp2q7AKr1tfc

[ekim]

Another interesting article ... https://tinyurl.com/45m5ukp3

[Aruntraveller]

I know some on here have no love for Jeremy Corbyn, and indeed, Peter Oborne when first I think of him doesn't seem like a natural supporter.

However, maybe we should have listened more to the substance of what JeremyC said, and less to the press's determination to paint him as some kind of fool:

https://www.middleeasteye.net/opinion/russia-ukraine-war-jeremy-corbyn-right-putin-oligarchs

I would suggest, although he wasn't a brilliant leader, he is nobody's fool, and certainly better than the leader we've got.

[Udayana]

Yes,Trent,

I agree, a good article and sad comment on UK politics and debate.

[Outrider]

But if you wrote a similar list for Asia or Africa, it wlould likely be longer and contain many more in the 21st century.

I've not tried, but my impression is that it would be similar in scope, although more of the conflicts there tend to drag on longer. There's also the important consideration that at least some of the conflicts in those areas were the result of European colonialism's decline - and therefore involved European powers - or were the proxy wars of Western (if not necessarily entirely European) influences.

The wars there are no more nor less than the wars anywhere else, except that the people and the nations fighting them are browner and poorer.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Hmmm...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60597807

[ad_orientem]

Hmmm...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60597807

https://twitter.com/sshynwa/status/1501894942809075712?t=MxdvATRRyPPwuucb3UylnA&s=19

[SteveH]

Hmmm...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60597807

Nice gesture for the two teams to wear the colours of the Ukrainian flag...