Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 110887 times)

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #200 on: March 11, 2022, 08:36:18 AM »
Do people here believe that if Ukraine had agreed to Russia's terms at the outset, Russia would have eventually tried to gain more territory? As I understand it, the terms were for Ukraine to give up Donbass and Crimea, and to not join the EU or Nato.

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #201 on: March 11, 2022, 08:57:46 AM »
Do people here believe that if Ukraine had agreed to Russia's terms at the outset, Russia would have eventually tried to gain more territory? As I understand it, the terms were for Ukraine to give up Donbass and Crimea, and to not join the EU or Nato.

I think it was cede claims on Crimea to Russia, and accept Donbass and Lukhetsk as independent territories, and change the constitution to state no attempts would be made to join NATO.

I'd expect, if that was implemented, for the Russians to then either manipulate elections in those newly recognised independent territories until they 'voted' to join Russia, or simply usher friendly faces into power as with Byelorussia.

Given that it's then worked twice in the last decade, Putin would have to think that there's at least a chance he can do it again.

O.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #202 on: March 11, 2022, 09:24:33 AM »
I think it was cede claims on Crimea to Russia, and accept Donbass and Lukhetsk as independent territories, and change the constitution to state no attempts would be made to join NATO.

I'd expect, if that was implemented, for the Russians to then either manipulate elections in those newly recognised independent territories until they 'voted' to join Russia, or simply usher friendly faces into power as with Byelorussia.

Given that it's then worked twice in the last decade, Putin would have to think that there's at least a chance he can do it again.

O.
Thanks for clarifying. I know the way Russia has acted is completely wrong, but I can't help feeling that these terms would have been a price worth paying, at least for the short term, to avoid what has happened. The main problem I see with that scenario is being under the umbrella of such an evil regime. My gut feeling is that Russia will not always be like this, though. Putin will at some point die, and there is a chance a more honest regime can replace his?

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #203 on: March 11, 2022, 10:03:49 AM »
Do people here believe that if Ukraine had agreed to Russia's terms at the outset, Russia would have eventually tried to gain more territory? As I understand it, the terms were for Ukraine to give up Donbass and Crimea, and to not join the EU or Nato.

It's possible. I thought Putin would be a fool to invade (for reasons that have become evident). However, we have to factor in that Putin may be a couple of tanks short of a division and is not acting entirely rationally.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #204 on: March 11, 2022, 06:14:40 PM »
Jonathan Pie hits on the nose. As usual.

https://youtu.be/YAblAQENQhE
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #205 on: March 15, 2022, 09:25:39 AM »
I wasn't aware of the Budapest Memorandum, which explains why we are arming Ukraine.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2022, 09:55:22 AM by Spud »

Dicky Underpants

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #206 on: March 15, 2022, 04:15:29 PM »
I wasn't aware of the Budapest Memorandum, which explains why we are arming Ukraine.

Yes, despite the jaw-dropping lies of Sergei Lavrov,  the B M principally states that Russia should respect the independence and original borders of Ukraine, and that Ukraine should give up any attempts to be a nuclear power - which it DID.
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Udayana

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #207 on: March 15, 2022, 05:53:10 PM »
Yes, despite the jaw-dropping lies of Sergei Lavrov,  the B M principally states that Russia should respect the independence and original borders of Ukraine, and that Ukraine should give up any attempts to be a nuclear power - which it DID.

International law an treaties are a pigs ear in a dogs breakfast or somesuch. Negotiated at great expense and providing work for lawyers until the end of time. Every clause can be interpreted in many ways and special circumstances - and can be argued forever. Courts and tribunals etc are only effective if those involved cooperate or forcibly brought in after military defeat.  However there is no world policeman.

The EU was bad enough before improvement over the last decade or so, but the UN is totally hopeless, corrupt through and through and imo ultimately unworkable.

ETA: not my greatest post .. but I was feeling quite angry and can't be bothered to correct it !

 
« Last Edit: March 16, 2022, 07:21:29 PM by Udayana »
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #208 on: March 16, 2022, 06:35:36 PM »
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #209 on: March 17, 2022, 01:58:21 PM »
The words of someone who knows he's lost:
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1504159499040526338?t=nwwepdgR2E9rMSNVNW2pRQ&s=19

From this we take two messages.

1. He's throwing the oligarchs under the bus

2. He's trying to turn the populace against the segment that thinks the war is a bad idea.

He's set himself up for a civil war on both counts I think.

Edit: (for the pedants) not necessarily a literal civil war but definitely violence between Russians.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #210 on: March 17, 2022, 11:06:35 PM »
From this we take two messages.

1. He's throwing the oligarchs under the bus

2. He's trying to turn the populace against the segment that thinks the war is a bad idea.

He's set himself up for a civil war on both counts I think.

Edit: (for the pedants) not necessarily a literal civil war but definitely violence between Russians.

Medvedev also hinted at bringing back the death penalty. Could this be the fate of "traitors"?


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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #211 on: March 18, 2022, 07:58:03 AM »

SteveH

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #212 on: March 18, 2022, 11:15:21 AM »
Bono, at a concert, started clapping his hands over his head slowly, and said "Every time I clap my hands, a child in Africa dies". Someone in the audience shouted "Well, stop clapping then, you stupid twat!".
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #213 on: March 18, 2022, 12:00:47 PM »
Yes, despite the jaw-dropping lies of Sergei Lavrov,  the B M principally states that Russia should respect the independence and original borders of Ukraine, and that Ukraine should give up any attempts to be a nuclear power - which it DID.
But did it say anything about NATO expansion, which seems to be the main reason for the invasion; they don't like the prospect of being within striking distance. Even though that logic is flawed, as NATO is for the purpose of defense only.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #214 on: March 24, 2022, 10:46:03 AM »
Re: 'de'Nazifying' Ukraine, I'm reading through How One Priest Turned Putin’s Invasion Into a Holy War which contains a link to
Same-Sex Marriage as Immoral as Nazi Laws, Russian Putin Ally Says
"So-called homosexual marriages" threaten family values, he was quoted as saying by RIA Novosti and reported by The Moscow Times. He added that "when laws are detached from morality they cease being laws people can accept"—as, he said, was the case in Nazi Germany."

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #215 on: March 24, 2022, 11:12:10 AM »
Re: 'de'Nazifying' Ukraine, I'm reading through How One Priest Turned Putin’s Invasion Into a Holy War which contains a link to
Same-Sex Marriage as Immoral as Nazi Laws, Russian Putin Ally Says
"So-called homosexual marriages" threaten family values, he was quoted as saying by RIA Novosti and reported by The Moscow Times. He added that "when laws are detached from morality they cease being laws people can accept"—as, he said, was the case in Nazi Germany."

Hmmm...
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #216 on: March 24, 2022, 11:25:05 AM »
Re: 'de'Nazifying' Ukraine, I'm reading through How One Priest Turned Putin’s Invasion Into a Holy War which contains a link to
Same-Sex Marriage as Immoral as Nazi Laws, Russian Putin Ally Says
"So-called homosexual marriages" threaten family values, he was quoted as saying by RIA Novosti and reported by The Moscow Times. He added that "when laws are detached from morality they cease being laws people can accept"—as, he said, was the case in Nazi Germany."

Not quite sure what your point is.

the suggestion that same-sex marriage is in some way akin to Nazism is offensive in the extreme given what the Nazis did to gay people.

The legal situation for gay people in Ukraine is not brilliant, though better than it is Russia:

https://www.equaldex.com/region/ukraine

https://www.equaldex.com/region/russia

I get really tired of this mantra pushed by some religious people (although in reality they are just bigots) that "So-called homosexual marriages" threaten family values,.

How exactly does it threaten family values?

Because as far as I am concerned it really is as simple as if you don't like gay marriage then don't marry a gay person. Problem solved. Leave others alone to live their life as they see fit.

Do these religious nutjobs think that homosexuality is so irresistibly attractive that everybody is suddenly going to switch camps given the chance?

It is absurd.

I can only think that what they have as brains has been turned to jelly by years of exposure to incense and incantations.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2022, 11:28:39 AM by Trentvoyager »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #217 on: March 24, 2022, 03:54:50 PM »
Re: 'de'Nazifying' Ukraine, I'm reading through How One Priest Turned Putin’s Invasion Into a Holy War which contains a link to
Same-Sex Marriage as Immoral as Nazi Laws, Russian Putin Ally Says
"So-called homosexual marriages" threaten family values, he was quoted as saying by RIA Novosti and reported by The Moscow Times. He added that "when laws are detached from morality they cease being laws people can accept"—as, he said, was the case in Nazi Germany."

Kiril is nothing but a tool! A disgrace to the faith.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #218 on: March 24, 2022, 03:59:53 PM »
Nothing says "de-Nazification" like bombarding and besieging a city then herding its starving population into "camps"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost.com/2022/03/19/thousands-of-ukrainians-forcibly-taken-to-russian-camps-reports/amp/
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #219 on: March 24, 2022, 04:44:12 PM »
But did it say anything about NATO expansion, which seems to be the main reason for the invasion; they don't like the prospect of being within striking distance. Even though that logic is flawed, as NATO is for the purpose of defense only.

Well, at the risk of playing Devil's advocate, NATO sort of gave up that notion of being a purely defensive alliance when it went looking for a purpose and explicitly took part in operations in Afghanistan. Whilst there was a case to be made about potential terrorism from the region threatening NATO countries, involving NATO as an organisation moved outside of its classic remit, and at least called into question future claims that it's a purely defensive alliance.

However, that out of the way, it's only tangentially the cause. Russia needs warm-water ports, for both commerce and military activities; hence the annexation of Crimea. Now it needs to link Crimea to the rest of teh country, so needs the land corridor along southern Ukraine, which is where the bulk of its forces have been making their inroads. The stall around Kyiv, in the North, is in part because Russia are reluctant to overcommit there when it's merely a strategic strike to split defensive forces and prevent Ukrainian defences focussing along the southern front.

As Ukraine showed more and more willingness to try to join NATO, and NATO showed more willingness to consider it, so Putin's timescale got moved up; a NATO-supported Ukraine would not be a militarily viable target for Russia, but the soft-power approach of disinformation, agitation and slipping in ringers to massage votes was taking too long.

O.
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Udayana

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #220 on: March 25, 2022, 07:38:28 AM »
I've been on steroids for nearly three weeks now, and have started to understand what is going on in Putin's mind.. He really no longer gives a fuck. And will go for  broke if he feels he has to.
  >:(
Ah, but I was so much older then ... I'm younger than that now

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #221 on: March 25, 2022, 09:11:31 AM »
Not quite sure what your point is.

the suggestion that same-sex marriage is in some way akin to Nazism is offensive in the extreme given what the Nazis did to gay people.

The legal situation for gay people in Ukraine is not brilliant, though better than it is Russia:

https://www.equaldex.com/region/ukraine

https://www.equaldex.com/region/russia
I posted that mainly as it might give a bit of insight into why Russia invaded, ie rescuing Ukraine from Western liberalism, although the real reason could just be strategic, as O says.

Quote
I get really tired of this mantra pushed by some religious people (although in reality they are just bigots) that "So-called homosexual marriages" threaten family values,.

How exactly does it threaten family values?
If you think about it it's fairly obvious. If a child should be brought up by its natural parents then it doesn't make sense to introduce other partners into the family. A public commitment between the natural parents ensures that a child is brought up by them. That's what I see as the role of marriage. And I don't agree with the "marriage is not about kids" view; from a physiological/anatomical point of view, it is. And of course other factors threaten family values, such as divorce. And I don't agree that killing people is the way to prevent liberalism.

Quote
Because as far as I am concerned it really is as simple as if you don't like gay marriage then don't marry a gay person. Problem solved. Leave others alone to live their life as they see fit.

Do these religious nutjobs think that homosexuality is so irresistibly attractive that everybody is suddenly going to switch camps given the chance?

It is absurd.

I can only think that what they have as brains has been turned to jelly by years of exposure to incense and incantations.

What do you mean by "Do these religious nutjobs think that homosexuality is so irresistibly attractive that everybody is suddenly going to switch camps given the chance? "?

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #222 on: March 25, 2022, 09:21:29 AM »
If you think about it it's fairly obvious. If a child should be brought up by its natural parents then it doesn't make sense to introduce other partners into the family.

Firstly, if you accept gay people's relationships then you get fewer children and possibly fewer broken relationships. Secondly, the massively overwhelming number of children with step-families come from heterosexual parents, and there's no evidence whatsoever to support the notion that children brought up in gay households suffer in any way because of the orientation of their parents.

Quote
A public commitment between the natural parents ensures that a child is brought up by them.

As a parent of two IVF donor egg children, I can reliably say that there's absolutely no reason whatsoever that not having a 'biological' link to your children needs to in any way diminish your commitment, love or devotion to them. 'Natural' parents who do nothing more than provide a gamete and then years of neglect or abuse are a far, far worse threat to a child's wellbeing than a step-parent, regardless of their sexual orientation.

Quote
That's what I see as the role of marriage.

With the exception of the irrelevance of 'natural', there's no reason a gay marriage can't do exactly that. For the individuals concerned, probably far more effectively than if they are confined to relationships they don't really feel committed to because of social or legal constrictions on them being genuine about who they are.

Quote
And I don't agree with the "marriage is not about kids" view.

Which is fine, for you. Any marriage you choose can be about kids if you'd like. You don't get to tell everyone else what their marriage has to be about, though.

Quote
And of course other factors threaten family values, such as divorce.

Which is significantly more likely if you corral gay people into straight marriages as they only way they, who might be just as interested in raising children, can achieve their life goals.

Quote
And I don't agree that killing people is the way to prevent liberalism.

OK.

Quote
What do you mean by "Do these religious nutjobs think that homosexuality is so irresistibly attractive that everybody is suddenly going to switch camps given the chance? "?

I think that's probably a reference to the thick vein of panic in some religiously conservative communities - particularly in the US, that I'm aware of - that you can somehow 'train' somebody to be gay, or perhaps the reverse that if you never expose children to the idea of homosexuality they'll never have those inclinations, that being gay is a 'phase' or a 'rebellion'.

It's the 'you're straight really, you're just pretending because it's cool' parallel to the religious argument that 'you believe really, you're just pretending to be atheist because it's cool'.

O.
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #223 on: March 25, 2022, 09:50:33 AM »
I posted that mainly as it might give a bit of insight into why Russia invaded, ie rescuing Ukraine from Western liberalism, although the real reason could just be strategic, as O says.
Rescuing from Western liberalism? In what twisted Universe is Western liberalism bad?

Note that Russia is a country in which you can get 15 years in jail for reporting the war in Ukraine accurately. It's the Russians that need rescuing.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #224 on: March 25, 2022, 10:04:40 AM »
Quote
I posted that mainly as it might give a bit of insight into why Russia invaded, ie rescuing Ukraine from Western liberalism, although the real reason could just be strategic, as O says.

As the figures in the survey I posted made clear, there is not much difference between the two countries when it comes to the treatment of gay people. So if you think it is an insight you are mistaken. It might be being posited as a reason, but it is no more a reason than the claim that Ukraine is being rescued from Nazism.

Quote
A public commitment between the natural parents ensures that a child is brought up by them.

That will come as a surprise to many children who find themselves in the middle of some divorcing parents. Also, I'd rather have children brought up by people who truly want to be parents, rather than some numpties who forgot the condoms whilst on a night out on the piss.

Quote
What do you mean by "Do these religious nutjobs think that homosexuality is so irresistibly attractive that everybody is suddenly going to switch camps given the chance?

I thought the meaning was perfectly clear. If family values are threatened by gay marriage, then gay marriage must be an awesomely attractive alternative, wouldn't you say?

I mean get a grip, gay marriage doesn't affect anyone adversely, save those who have narrow enough minds to feel affronted by it.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2022, 10:32:55 AM by Trentvoyager »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.