Arming the Ukrainians

[Spud]

That's the might is right argument again. Give in to the bully in the hope he might stop bullying you. It's not an option though because the bully never stops there.

Putin won't be around forever.

[ad_orientem]

Putin won't be around forever.

No. Hopefully not for long but what about his cronies?

[jeremyp]

I was reading this morning that China is to expand its Navy. The reaction from the US is to raise the alarm. Likewise, Russia sees NATO expansion as a provocation.

Ironic really. It was Putin that provoked NATO expansion

[jeremyp]

No. Hopefully not for long but what about his cronies?

I think once Putin is gone, Russia will immediately withdraw from Ukraine and do everything it can to have the sanctions removed. It's probably obvious to everybody in the power chain in Russia that this was a terrible mistake. It's probably obvious even to Putin, but he's a dead man the moment he admits it.

[Spud]

Ironic really. It was Putin that provoked NATO expansion

Recently, yes. But historically it seems to be the other way round: the Warsaw Pact was a consequence of the rearming of West Germany within NATO, and since the Pact was discontinued, 11 central and Eastern European countries have joined, with more talking about joining. I think there is a culture of war and violence escalating (just heard talk of a defense treaty between Russia, China and Brazil), and that there has to be a worldwide resolution to work permanently towards deescalation and disarming.

[Spud]

I think once Putin is gone, Russia will immediately withdraw from Ukraine and do everything it can to have the sanctions removed. It's probably obvious to everybody in the power chain in Russia that this was a terrible mistake. It's probably obvious even to Putin, but he's a dead man the moment he admits it.

Yes - problems seem to start when one leader goes rogue, and subside when he is gone.

[ad_orientem]

Here is a very interesting Twitter account. The owner of the account has for the past three months been translating into English intercepted mobile phone conversations between Russian soldiers and people back in Russia. The conversations describe everything from looting, complaining about command, deserting, major loses and even torture of Ukranian captives. Some of it is quite graphic. These should be made more public, just in case there are still some fuckwits out there with any doubt.

https://twitter.com/mdmitri91/status/1533855587150217219?t=UdUX4lcSsp-mY85dH-bRsw&s=19

[Udayana]

The example in that thread is really horrible and does seem, at least on the surface, incredible as a mother-son conversation.

As the conflict becomes more bogged down with high casualties, destruction and devastating world wide impacts, it would really help to find ways through Putin's information blocks, such that Russians could get more factual and objective news of events. Maybe, might be the only way to end it ...?





 

[Spud]

The Russians seem to be
being more successful sine they pulled back to regions that border Russia and the black sea.

[ad_orientem]

News breaking that the Fascist Russian proxies of Donetsk have sentenced two Brits and one Moroccan to death for being "mercenaries". In reality they were contracted to the Ukranian army, which means they have POW status. Another in a long list of Russian war crimes.

[ad_orientem]

#WeAreNAFO Come join us!

https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3pd5y/shitposting-shiba-inu-accounts-chased-a-russian-diplomat-offline?utm_source=motherboard_twitter

[ad_orientem]

So how long will it take for the world to declare RuSSia a terrorist state and declare all agreements made with it null and void?

[Udayana]

So how long will it take for the world to declare RuSSia a terrorist state and declare all agreements made with it null and void?

It seems obvious this is not going to happen? The world has been complicit in Russian kleptocracy for decades. They will adjust to the new state of affairs, the next cold war, until Putin is ousted or dies without a similarly motivated successor, or succeeds in the destruction and subjugation of Ukraine, whichever is sooner.   

[ad_orientem]

It seems obvious this is not going to happen? The world has been complicit in Russian kleptocracy for decades. They will adjust to the new state of affairs, the next cold war, until Putin is ousted or dies without a similarly motivated successor, or succeeds in the destruction and subjugation of Ukraine, whichever is sooner.

Waiting for Putin to be ousted or die isn't the solution because it implies that Russia can be rehabilitated. This isn't a Putin problem, it's a Russia problem. The only real solution is one that results in the break up of the Russian Federation.

[Spud]

A friend of mine stood a foot away from me and said 'can we talk like this?'
Me: er...
Him, standing a metre away: can we talk like this?
Me: yes
Him: NATO and Russia can't talk if they share a border. Russia is happy for Ukraine to be independent, but not if they join NATO

[Aruntraveller]

And yet Russia hasn't invaded Norway, Poland, Latvia and Estonia.

All of which have borders with Russia and are in NATO.

It's almost like you are making stuff up to defend Russia's actions.

[Spud]

I'm not defending the way Russia is acting, Trent. The Russian language is mutually intelligible with Belarusian and Ukrainian, but not with those countries you listed.

[ad_orientem]

I'm not defending the way Russia is acting, Trent. The Russian language is mutually intelligible with Belarusian and Ukrainian, but not with those countries you listed.

Eh?

[Aruntraveller]

I'm not defending the way Russia is acting, Trent. The Russian language is mutually intelligible with Belarusian and Ukrainian, but not with those countries you listed.

What the heck has that got to do with the price of fish?

We do have people called translators, and I know you will find a considerable number of people in Poland who speak Russian due to the Russians forcing their language onto Poland. Current estimates run at around 7 million Polish speakers of Russian, more than enough to converse about any topic including invasion.

[jeremyp]

And yet Russia hasn't invaded Norway, Poland, Latvia and Estonia.

All of which have borders with Russia and are in NATO.

It's almost like you are making stuff up to defend Russia's actions.

Poland doesn't have a border with Russia (excepting that weird little chunk with Kaliningrad in it) and Norway's is very short and very far North.

Notwithstanding that, if Russia does not like countries on its border joining NATO, it should probably stop demonstrating that they need to be in NATO for their own protection from Russia.

[ad_orientem]

Russia is NATO's best saleman.

[Aruntraveller]

Poland doesn't have a border with Russia (excepting that weird little chunk with Kaliningrad in it) and Norway's is very short and very far North.

Thank you for confirming they have a border with Russia.

[Spud]

Eh?

Ok, the language difference might be bigger than I thought.

[ad_orientem]

Ok, the language difference might be bigger than I thought.

I might be, it might not. I can't say. Still, I don't understand why having a related language would make joining NATO (if that really was ever on the cards) more unacceptable (to RuSSia, that is).

[SteveH]

If I might play devil's advocate; parts of Eastern Ukraine, notably the Donbas region, are majority-Russian. Is it unreasonable for them to be ceded to Russia, If Putin could be persuaded to content himself with that?