Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 110727 times)

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #350 on: July 28, 2022, 10:38:34 PM »
Tell that to the victims and all the people who have been murdered, tortured or raped. Russia must fucking fall.
And you'll accept murder torture and rape to achieve that.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #351 on: July 29, 2022, 02:02:33 AM »
And you'll accept murder torture and rape to achieve that.

All I said was they must die! I never suggested that anyone commit any war crimes. I'm saying that every single last orc should go home in a body bag. They deserve nothing less now.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2022, 05:09:29 AM by ad_orientem »
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #352 on: July 29, 2022, 09:37:45 AM »
All I said was they must die! I never suggested that anyone commit any war crimes. I'm saying that every single last orc should go home in a body bag. They deserve nothing less now.
Which would almost certainly represent a massive war crime.

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #353 on: July 29, 2022, 10:10:55 AM »
All I said was they must die! I never suggested that anyone commit any war crimes. I'm saying that every single last orc should go home in a body bag. They deserve nothing less now.

The "orcs" are just people who have been put in a bad situation by their president. I'd be happy with them just going home, leaving all their equipment behind and telling everybody in Russia what it was really like.

Of course, some of them have committed war crimes and they should ideally be brought to justice, but I don't agree with capital punishment so I'd be happy with prison sentences for them.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #354 on: July 29, 2022, 10:17:22 AM »
Which would almost certainly represent a massive war crime.

How, if it was done within the rules of combat? I'm not suggesting anything else. Just look to annihilate the enemy through superior firepower. That's why we should be giving Ukraine everything we've got. Let's put an end to this here. We should also be looking to support ethnic rebellion across Russia and reduce it to its 1471 borders and call it Muskovy. Russia doesn't deserve to exist. It's entire history is one of paranoia, aggression and genocide.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #355 on: July 29, 2022, 10:22:24 AM »
The "orcs" are just people who have been put in a bad situation by their president. I'd be happy with them just going home, leaving all their equipment behind and telling everybody in Russia what it was really like.

Of course, some of them have committed war crimes and they should ideally be brought to justice, but I don't agree with capital punishment so I'd be happy with prison sentences for them.

I don't buy that they're just a bunch of poor sods who are being used by Putin. Of course there are Russians against the war and Putin but generally Russians are behind the war and adhere to the mindset behind it. It belongs to the Russian psyche. As a nation they have to accept a measure of collective guilt because they have enabled this.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2022, 11:15:15 AM by ad_orientem »
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #356 on: July 29, 2022, 10:27:49 AM »
Well worth a watch if you have the time. This is a lecture from 2018 on Russia by a former Finnish military intelligence colonel.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5F45i0v_u6s
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #357 on: July 29, 2022, 10:33:28 AM »
How, if it was done within the rules of combat? I'm not suggesting anything else. Just look to annihilate the enemy through superior firepower. That's why we should be giving Ukraine everything we've got. Let's put an end to this here. We should also be looking to support ethnic rebellion across Russia and reduce it to its 1471 borders and call it Muskovy. Russia doesn't deserve to exist. It's entire history is one of paranoia, aggression and genocide.
How would it be possible to kill every single enemy combatant within the rules of combat which only permit you to kill enemy combatants under certain circumstances. You are not permitted under law to engage in unnecessary killing of enemy combatants, nor can you kill captured enemy combatants. And the law is such that if enemy combatants can be put out of action by capturing them, they should not be injured; if they can be put out of action by injury, they should not be killed. Nor are you allowed to engage in reciprocity - in other words to violate the Geneva convention as reprisal for violations by your enemy.

So it is extremely difficult to see how you could kill all your enemies combatants without it being a massive war crime.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #358 on: July 29, 2022, 12:20:33 PM »
How would it be possible to kill every single enemy combatant within the rules of combat which only permit you to kill enemy combatants under certain circumstances. You are not permitted under law to engage in unnecessary killing of enemy combatants, nor can you kill captured enemy combatants. And the law is such that if enemy combatants can be put out of action by capturing them, they should not be injured; if they can be put out of action by injury, they should not be killed. Nor are you allowed to engage in reciprocity - in other words to violate the Geneva convention as reprisal for violations by your enemy.

So it is extremely difficult to see how you could kill all your enemies combatants without it being a massive war crime.
Great post, PD.
Setting aside my view that the war could have been avoided by agreeing to Russia's terms of peace from the outset, and that the aid given to Ukraine has until now not been sufficient to allow them to win, I've been thinking about the slightly confusing NT verse in which Jesus tells his disciples to "buy a sword". I wonder if his meaning was that when an evil person, who Jesus says elsewhere not to resist, uses a weapon to murder someone, the goal must be to disarm the person, if possible by destroying or disabling the weapon, and if that entails inflicting harm upon the person, this action is still necessary to protect the innocent.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #359 on: July 29, 2022, 01:35:15 PM »
Setting aside my view that the war could have been avoided by agreeing to Russia's terms of peace from the outset, and that the aid given to Ukraine has until now not been sufficient to allow them to win

Pootin sympathist! You've really bought into the Moskovites narrative. Pray, what "peace" did he ofder that didn't entail Ukraine having to give up its territorial sovereignty? Utterly morally reprehensible view!
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #360 on: July 29, 2022, 01:39:16 PM »
I don't buy that they're just a bunch of poor sods who are being used by Putin. Of course there are Russians against the war and Putin but generally Russians are behind the war and adhere to the mindset behind it. It belongs to the Russian psyche. As a nation they have to accept a measure of collective guilt because they have enabled this.

Genocide it is then.
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ProfessorDavey

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #361 on: July 29, 2022, 03:08:58 PM »
I don't buy that they're just a bunch of poor sods who are being used by Putin. Of course there are Russians against the war and Putin but generally Russians are behind the war and adhere to the mindset behind it. It belongs to the Russian psyche. As a nation they have to accept a measure of collective guilt because they have enabled this.
Some of the soldiers are reported to be conscripts - so they have no choice whatsoever.

And for those who aren't conscripts, you can certainly argue that they shouldn't have joined the russian military, but having done so they have no control over what they are asked to do.

So while I completely accept that the russian authorities, and Putin in particular, have their blood-stained fingerprints all over this, I'm not convinced you can blame all russians in the manner you do. Let's not forget that people in many countries have a knee-jerk allegiance to their country (for right or wrong) - and that will be amplified if they are exposed to propaganda that suggests they are right and the other side is wrong (as is the case in russia).

Sure we can argue that they shouldn't have this mind-set, but many across the world do have knee-jerk allegiance to their country, and we can pretend that they won't be impacted by what their media says, but few people aren't. But can you honestly say that if you, by quirk of fate, had been born in russia and of russian heritage that you wouldn't consider that you had allegiance to russia. You come across as quite nationalistic and that is the mind-set that nationalists tend to have.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #362 on: July 29, 2022, 03:46:25 PM »
Genocide it is then.
 

Sorry, how do you get to that conclusion? Don't you think nations bear some sort of collective responsibility for their history? Nazi Germany anyone?
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #363 on: July 29, 2022, 06:14:51 PM »
Pootin sympathist! You've really bought into the Moskovites narrative. Pray, what "peace" did he ofder that didn't entail Ukraine having to give up its territorial sovereignty? Utterly morally reprehensible view!
Why?

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #364 on: July 29, 2022, 06:42:03 PM »
Why?

Because you're doing what you did at the beginning of this thread. Might is right! We mustn't annoy Russia. Musn't embarrass Pootin! Russia big bear who gets annoyed when you poke him! Slava Rossiya!  Vatnik talk.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2022, 07:48:55 PM by ad_orientem »
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #365 on: July 30, 2022, 01:21:03 PM »
 

Sorry, how do you get to that conclusion? Don't you think nations bear some sort of collective responsibility for their history? Nazi Germany anyone?

Because you want all the Russians dead.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #366 on: July 30, 2022, 01:50:14 PM »
Because you want all the Russians dead.

Yes, I would quite happily see all the Russian invaders dead but that is not genocide.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #367 on: July 30, 2022, 01:51:42 PM »
More war Russian war crimes.

https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1553346547739410432?t=LBSW7w8LPKzzwiELi-gdnA&s=19

Anyone still think the invaders deserve to live? There will be revenge for this.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2022, 01:54:40 PM by ad_orientem »
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #368 on: August 01, 2022, 08:36:30 PM »
Because you're doing what you did at the beginning of this thread. Might is right!
I'm not saying might is right. That philosophy is wrong, but if somebody acts on it against you and they are bigger than you, and you retaliate, then you will get beaten up.
Quote
We mustn't annoy Russia. Musn't embarrass Pootin! Russia big bear who gets annoyed when you poke him! Slava Rossiya!  Vatnik talk.
I went to pat an elephant on the trunk once, and ended up on the ground. We would risk ww3 if we get directly involved. Yet in order to beat Russia, in my opinion that would take all NATO has got - assuming China doesn't side with Russia.

More war Russian war crimes.

https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1553346547739410432?t=LBSW7w8LPKzzwiELi-gdnA&s=19

Anyone still think the invaders deserve to live? There will be revenge for this.
The New Testament teaches us to avoid retaliation and revenge.
You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #369 on: August 01, 2022, 09:12:29 PM »
Quote
But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person.


Just inviting so many Godwinism's.

So are you seriously saying when a woman gets attacked in the street by some pervert that she should not resist him?

Seriously that is the biggest steaming pile of shite you've served up yet.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

SteveH

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #370 on: August 01, 2022, 10:52:24 PM »
All I said was they must die! I never suggested that anyone commit any war crimes. I'm saying that every single last orc should go home in a body bag. They deserve nothing less now.
You want to calm down a lot, and drop the inflammatory language. You sound like the sort of propagandist who incites war crimes.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #371 on: August 03, 2022, 10:23:46 AM »

Just inviting so many Godwinism's.

So are you seriously saying when a woman gets attacked in the street by some pervert that she should not resist him?

Seriously that is the biggest steaming pile of shite you've served up yet.
Is he raping her or killing her or both?
If it's just rape, suppose she has a knife. Would it be better to kill him or let him rape her?
If someone robs you do you kill them?
Do not repay evil for evil, but overcome evil with good.
Russia wanted to rob Ukraine, they didn't want to kill them. But they brought weapons with them knowing that Ukrainians would try to kill them.
If it is unjust to kill a robber, then Ukraine is guilty of initiating the war. Many Ukrainians in Donbas did not resist with violence, but protested and stood in front of the tanks etc. I think that was the right thing to do.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #372 on: August 03, 2022, 10:29:19 AM »
Is he raping her or killing her or both?
If it's just rape, suppose she has a knife. Would it be better to kill him or let him rape her?
If someone robs you do you kill them?
Do not repay evil for evil, but overcome evil with good.
Russia wanted to rob Ukraine, they didn't want to kill them. But they brought weapons with them knowing that Ukrainians would try to kill them.
If it is unjust to kill a robber, then Ukraine is guilty of initiating the war. Many Ukrainians in Donbas did not resist with violence, but protested and stood in front of the tanks etc. I think that was the right thing to do.

What are you actually going on about?

"Excuse me just a moment before you do whatever you are going to do can you just let me know is this a rape or murder?"

"TEll you what luv, I'll do two for the price of one"

You aren't real Spud. You are some kind of grotesque made up bot.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Roses

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #373 on: August 03, 2022, 11:23:50 AM »
I am gobsmacked by Spud's crazy daft comments. :o If someone tried to attack me I would do my best to prevent it happening. If it was a man I'd try to kick him where it hurts for a start.   
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #374 on: August 03, 2022, 01:31:07 PM »
Uri Geller...