Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 118945 times)

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #525 on: September 12, 2022, 10:02:03 PM »
Most people would probably just cooperate with whichever power won the territory and not be particularly bothered who it was, I would think.

Most people, of course, would cooperate, because the alternative in Putin's Russia is to find yourself in prison thousands of miles away from your family. I strongly suspect they'd be quite bothered - bothered enough to put up an army to resist it, as it turns out.

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The Donbas is hardly significantly close to the West.

The Donbas both has deep-water ports on the Sea of Azov, which also has Bulgarian, Greek, Romanian, Turkish and other coasts, and provides a land-bridge from Russia to the occupied territories of Crimea which also have highly developed ports. Although Russia has ports on the Sea of Azov none of them are of such capability, and with that previously narrow coast to blockade it wasn't a viable route of offence - now it is. Tactically and strategically it puts significantly more Russian pressure on the Sea of Azov and, from there, the Black Sea.

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Ukraine may have asked to join Nato, and I don't see that as a problem, but Russia did have a problem with it and so for Ukraine to join would escalate tension with Russia.

If Russia wasn't an expansionist territory there wouldn't have been pressure on Ukraine to join NATO in order to bolster its defences. Arrangements between Nato and Ukraine are none of Russia's business so long as Russia stays in, you know, Russia.
 
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If Hungary relies on Russia for fuel, what is wrong with its remaining neutral?

To paraphrase, "For evil to flourish, good men (and Victor Orban) must stand by and do nothing..." Germany relies on Russia for fuel, it has not stood by and done nothing. Bosnia Herzegovina,  Moldova, North Macedonia, Latvia, Serbia, Austria, Bulgaria, Finland, Slovakia, Greece and Slovenia all, like Hungary, get in excess of 60% of their gas from Russia, typically - have they stood by?

It's a tough choice to have to make, I don't disagree, but everyone else has chosen a different path to Orban's Hungary - you have to wonder why a racist, misogynist, Christian Nationalist leadership chooses to not oppose Vladimir Putin's invasion of a neighbour and draw your own conclusions. Maybe Victor Orban is a pacifist at heart... maybe. And maybe not.

O.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #526 on: September 15, 2022, 06:46:00 AM »
On a slightly different topic but not unrelated, I spend a lot of time on Twitter and as a NAFO member we regularly target vatniks, tankies and their disinformation. Vatniks are just horrible people and tankies are often a special kind of psycopath; but we've discovered a new kind of stupid: MAGA communists, basically red-browns. I know it's been criticised somewhat but it does make me think if there is some truth to horseshoe theory.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2022, 07:58:15 AM by ad_orientem »
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Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #527 on: September 15, 2022, 10:57:10 AM »
On a slightly different topic but not unrelated, I spend a lot of time on Twitter and as a NAFO member we regularly target vatniks, tankies and their disinformation. Vatniks are just horrible people and tankies are often a special kind of psycopath; but we've discovered a new kind of stupid: MAGA communists, basically red-browns. I know it's been criticised somewhat but it does make me think if there is some truth to horseshoe theory.

Didn't really understand a word of that  :)

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #528 on: September 15, 2022, 11:44:14 AM »
Didn't really understand a word of that  :)

Don't worry, I understand. Took me a while to learn the lingo too. :)

NAFO: a loose collective of online cartoon shiba inu dogs who challenge Russian propaganda mainly on Twitter
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en/article/y3pd5y/shitposting-shiba-inu-accounts-chased-a-russian-diplomat-offline

Vantik: pro-Russian, laps up all the propaganda

Tankie: communist

MAGA: make America great again

Red-brown: communist and fascist

Horseshoe theory: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

Hope that helps.👍
« Last Edit: September 15, 2022, 12:42:14 PM by ad_orientem »
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Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #529 on: September 15, 2022, 07:21:05 PM »
Don't worry, I understand. Took me a while to learn the lingo too. :)

NAFO: a loose collective of online cartoon shiba inu dogs who challenge Russian propaganda mainly on Twitter
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vice.com/amp/en/article/y3pd5y/shitposting-shiba-inu-accounts-chased-a-russian-diplomat-offline

Vantik: pro-Russian, laps up all the propaganda

Tankie: communist

MAGA: make America great again

Red-brown: communist and fascist

Horseshoe theory: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

Hope that helps.👍

Thanks  :)

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #530 on: September 16, 2022, 05:31:35 AM »
Most people, of course, would cooperate, because the alternative in Putin's Russia is to find yourself in prison thousands of miles away from your family. I strongly suspect they'd be quite bothered - bothered enough to put up an army to resist it, as it turns out.
Yes but that army has to be strong enough to win.
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The Donbas both has deep-water ports on the Sea of Azov, which also has Bulgarian, Greek, Romanian, Turkish and other coasts, and provides a land-bridge from Russia to the occupied territories of Crimea which also have highly developed ports. Although Russia has ports on the Sea of Azov none of them are of such capability, and with that previously narrow coast to blockade it wasn't a viable route of offence - now it is. Tactically and strategically it puts significantly more Russian pressure on the Sea of Azov and, from there, the Black Sea.
I didn't know that about the ports.
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If Russia wasn't an expansionist territory there wouldn't have been pressure on Ukraine to join NATO in order to bolster its defences. Arrangements between Nato and Ukraine are none of Russia's business so long as Russia stays in, you know, Russia.
 
It seems wherever you have two superpowers with territory between them, that territory will get caught in the tension between them. I would have thought the way to prevent that would be to reduce that tension.
Also, I am coming to the conclusion that Russia's actions are not so much expansionist but defensive.
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To paraphrase, "For evil to flourish, good men (and Victor Orban) must stand by and do nothing..." Germany relies on Russia for fuel, it has not stood by and done nothing. Bosnia Herzegovina,  Moldova, North Macedonia, Latvia, Serbia, Austria, Bulgaria, Finland, Slovakia, Greece and Slovenia all, like Hungary, get in excess of 60% of their gas from Russia, typically - have they stood by?
Are the people of those countries well and truly behind their governments? Was it the German foreign minister who stated (a bit foolishly) that she would defend Ukraine, no matter what her voters thought?
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It's a tough choice to have to make, I don't disagree, but everyone else has chosen a different path to Orban's Hungary - you have to wonder why a racist, misogynist, Christian Nationalist leadership chooses to not oppose Vladimir Putin's invasion of a neighbour and draw your own conclusions. Maybe Victor Orban is a pacifist at heart... maybe. And maybe not.

O.
I don't know much about orban or his politics but I imagine he is putting his country's welfare first

Gordon

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #531 on: September 16, 2022, 07:08:13 AM »
I don't know much about orban or his politics but I imagine he is putting his country's welfare first

Then maybe you should: starting with current events.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/15/hungary-is-no-longer-a-full-democracy-says-european-parliament

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #532 on: September 16, 2022, 09:13:27 AM »
I am coming to the conclusion that Russia's actions are not so much expansionist but defensive.

Sorry Spud, but you are totally out of your tree if you believe that.
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Roses

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #533 on: September 16, 2022, 10:46:45 AM »
Sorry Spud, but you are totally out of your tree if you believe that.

I totally agree. Spud hasn't a clue what he is talking about most of the time.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #534 on: September 17, 2022, 09:02:17 AM »
Sorry Spud, but you are totally out of your tree if you believe that.
Its response to NATO expansion is to attempt to de-militarise Ukraine.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #535 on: September 17, 2022, 09:11:56 AM »
Its response to NATO expansion is to attempt to de-militarise Ukraine.
'in order to save the village, we had to destroy it'

Roses

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #536 on: September 17, 2022, 11:33:44 AM »
'in order to save the village, we had to destroy it'

"As well as torturing and killing those who stand against us!" >:(
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #537 on: September 17, 2022, 03:16:36 PM »
Its response to NATO expansion is to attempt to de-militarise Ukraine.

Rubbish! It was never about NATO. Anyway, if Russia wasn't so aggressive it neighbours might not feel the need to join. Russia is NATO's best salesman. As a result of this war Russia will be doubling its border with NATO.
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #538 on: September 17, 2022, 03:26:25 PM »
Its response to NATO expansion is to attempt to de-militarise Ukraine.

Depopulate is the word you are thinking of.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #539 on: September 18, 2022, 11:29:09 PM »
Depopulate is the word you are thinking of.
But their actions seem consistent with their stated aim of de-militarizing. They seem to be being quite selective in who they kill.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 09:07:18 AM by Spud »

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #540 on: September 18, 2022, 11:31:40 PM »
"As well as torturing and killing those who stand against us!" >:(
Exactly. Note I am not saying they are right to do this.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #541 on: September 18, 2022, 11:41:52 PM »
Would the English would be happy for Scotland to form a defensive alliance with Russia in order to gain independence from the UK? Just a thought.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #542 on: September 18, 2022, 11:46:34 PM »
A related thought: is the fear of Scotland joining the EU behind the English desire to keep them in the Union?

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #543 on: September 19, 2022, 09:31:31 AM »
But their actions seem consistent with their stated aim of de-militarizing. They seem to be being quite selective in who they kill.

What kind of alternate universe are you living in?
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #544 on: September 19, 2022, 09:44:00 AM »
A related thought: is the fear of Scotland joining the EU behind the English desire to keep them in the Union?

There are a lot of assumptions in that scenario.

The first one is that the English think as one on any given issue. They don't.

It would perhaps be better if it had been phrased "is the fear of Scotland joining the EU behind the English Conservative governments desire to keep them in the Union?"

Even then I think the argument is unsound.

At the root of it, the UK government believes it should continue to rule all parts of the UK. I don't think membership or not of the EU comes into it.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #545 on: September 19, 2022, 09:49:12 AM »
There are a lot of assumptions in that scenario.

The first one is that the English think as one on any given issue. They don't.

It would perhaps be better if it had been phrased "is the fear of Scotland joining the EU behind the English Conservative governments desire to keep them in the Union?"

Even then I think the argument is unsound.

At the root of it, the UK government believes it should continue to rule all parts of the UK. I don't think membership or not of the EU comes into it.
In addition at the time of the 2014 indyref, the No campaign backed by UK govt argued the only way to stay in the EU was to vote No.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #546 on: September 21, 2022, 11:44:38 AM »
Russia is definitely losing this war now. It's hard to see how partial mobilisation will help. But after Putin's laughable speech with yet more nuclear bluff, here are my thoughts.

Call Putin's bluff. Finland to claim back Karelia as its own, Köninsberg to Lithuania and/or Poland and Muscovy to be declared a demilitarised zone under NATO control. Then bomb Moscow and St. Petersburg into the stoneage (no need to bother with the rest of Russia as it already lives in the stoneage). Send in Finnish, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian and Polish troops. They can have a race to see who reaches Moscow first and on the way we can all do what we were all born to do, have a competition to see who collects the most orc scalps. Oh yeah! Nuclear threats.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #547 on: September 21, 2022, 11:45:18 AM »
And btw, that was written only half in jest.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #548 on: September 21, 2022, 12:35:08 PM »
And btw, that was written only half in jest.
Not sure that makes it better. Scalping? Orcs? You are a shiny mirror version of this

https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1572087951416336385?t=F8Qz1NQD67n_-8iNj2HMpQ&s=19

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #549 on: September 21, 2022, 01:23:49 PM »
Not sure that makes it better. Scalping? Orcs? You are a shiny mirror version of this

https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1572087951416336385?t=F8Qz1NQD67n_-8iNj2HMpQ&s=19


I just love the way people who have never had to live next to that monster moralise about how we should feel about them.
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.