Arming the Ukrainians

[ad_orientem]

Have they suggested that Zelensky is head of a paedophile ring yet?

I noticed Sergei Lavrov in the photo. I believe it is claimed that he knows seven or eight languages. I wonder how he feels deep down when he is required to talk shit in all of them?

LOL!🤣

During the Kharkiv offensive some Russian Telegram channels were explaining Russian losses by saying Ukraine had produced super soldiers in their biolabs. Also, lots of "American negroes". Russians aren't coping very well! You can find even more fucked up stuff if you know where to look.

This is an explanation about two Russian soldiers caught on camera having sex.

[Spud]

With the dam destroyed or not, the Dnipro represents a major military obstacle. If the Russians dug in on the South bank, having evacuated the Northern part of Kherson, I'd be extremely surprised if Ukraine could get across.

In fact, I think the only reason the Russians haven't done that already is the optics of abandoning the capital city of a region they have just claimed is part of Russia. i.e. it's politics, not tactics.

I agree about the river being a military obstacle, it would seem a natural border. But there may be other reasons for holding the north side of Kherson than just optical/political.
They said a while back that they had a new objective which was to destroy any NATO-supplied longer range artillery that threatens the annexed territories. Could this also be why they're taking out energy infrastructure, which is apparently a common prelude to a major offensive (such as at the start of the Iraq war). Also they stated that one of their objectives was to stop genocide of Russian-speakers, hence the referenda and annexation of the whole oblast of Kherson.

[Maeght]

I agree about the river being a military obstacle, it would seem a natural border. But there may be other reasons for holding the north side of Kherson than just optical/political.
They said a while back that they had a new objective which was to destroy any NATO-supplied longer range artillery that threatens the annexed territories. Could this also be why they're taking out energy infrastructure, which is apparently a common prelude to a major offensive (such as at the start of the Iraq war). Also they stated that one of their objectives was to stop genocide of Russian-speakers, hence the referenda and annexation of the whole oblast of Kherson.

What genocide?

[Spud]

What genocide?

The one Putin claims has occurred. Perhaps the best evidence I have found that it is taking place is Eva Bartlett's coverage of Ukrainian shelling of residential areas in Donetsk which she says has happened daily for years. But maybe genocide is not the right word for it, war crimes could be more accurate, I don't know. Note, my comment was about the policy of Russia to hold the territory in Kherson north of the river, and possible reasons for it.

[Aruntraveller]

This Eva Bartlett?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eva_Bartlett

I have a website for you to follow Spud, I know you'll like it because it's absolutely, indisputably, unarguably, incontrovertibly, undeniably, irrefutably correct.

I know how you like to learn the truth about issues:

https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/

[Spud]

Trent, perhaps anyone claiming that Ukraine is winning should be following the flat earth website?

I don't like to mention it, I just do mention it: Russia has taken 15% of Ukraine and held it. So far, Obama in 2014 was right.

[Maeght]

The one Putin claims has occurred. Perhaps the best evidence I have found that it is taking place is Eva Bartlett's coverage of Ukrainian shelling of residential areas in Donetsk which she says has happened daily for years. But maybe genocide is not the right word for it, war crimes could be more accurate, I don't know. Note, my comment was about the policy of Russia to hold the territory in Kherson north of the river, and possible reasons for it.

Yes, and you gave the Russian claim of a genocide as a reason for the invasion without commenting on whether it was a justified claim.

[Aruntraveller]

Trent, perhaps anyone claiming that Ukraine is winning should be following the flat earth website?

I don't like to mention it, I just do mention it: Russia has taken 15% of Ukraine and held it. So far, Obama in 2014 was right.

Oh yeah cos Putin thought he'd be able to walk in over a few days and take Ukraine. How's that going you Russian shill?

Yes Obama was right in 2014. We are now in 2022.

[ad_orientem]

The one Putin claims has occurred. Perhaps the best evidence I have found that it is taking place is Eva Bartlett's coverage of Ukrainian shelling of residential areas in Donetsk which she says has happened daily for years. But maybe genocide is not the right word for it, war crimes could be more accurate, I don't know. Note, my comment was about the policy of Russia to hold the territory in Kherson north of the river, and possible reasons for it.

Eva Bartlett is a Russian shill! Also her head is an egg.

[ad_orientem]

Trent, perhaps anyone claiming that Ukraine is winning should be following the flat earth website?

I don't like to mention it, I just do mention it: Russia has taken 15% of Ukraine and held it. So far, Obama in 2014 was right.

Yes, Ukraine is winning. Almost 70,000 dead orcs says so.

Kyiv was just a feint! Snake Island, good will gesture. Kharkiv, withdrawal. Cope more!

[Spud]

Oh yeah cos Putin thought he'd be able to walk in over a few days and take Ukraine. How's that going you Russian shill?

Yes Obama was right in 2014. We are now in 2022.

Putin wasn't prepared for NATO to supply Ukraine.
I am not a Russian shill, just looking objectively at the military side of it and researching the cause.

[Spud]

Yes, Ukraine is winning. Almost 70,000 dead orcs says so.

Kyiv was just a feint! Snake Island, good will gesture. Kharkiv, withdrawal. Cope more!

Nobody is winning. Unless one side backs down it will be stalemate.

[Spud]

Eva Bartlett is a Russian shill! Also her head is an egg.

The 13 civilian deaths on 19 September that she reported were confirmed in western media.

[Spud]

Yes, and you gave the Russian claim of a genocide as a reason for the invasion without commenting on whether it was a justified claim.

I think my point in giving the Russian claim was to show that they are keeping to that originally-stated objective, this then showing that they were not just trying to appear successful to the people of Russia by holding territory.

[Spud]

Yes, and you gave the Russian claim of a genocide as a reason for the invasion without commenting on whether it was a justified claim.

By way of a comment: it seems that from 2014, as well as pre-2012, the Ukrainian language was, in parts of Donbas where the majority are ethnic Russians, encouraged by the government merely for the sake of ensuring loyalty to Ukraine.
Russia has interpreted this as a reason to protect ethnic Russians in those areas, and I can understand their thinking. If the Ukrainian government were to be really honest, they would recognize there to be no need to hold on to control over them.
Maybe this has led to the hyper-nationalism exhibited in Poroshenko's words in 2014 about the people of Odessa being on the right track because they are pro-Ukrainian.

As I understand it Putin did not initially want Donbas to be independent. He only intervened when hypernationalists began to fight with the pro-Russian separatists. He only recognised their independence in 2022, eight years later.

[ad_orientem]

Nobody is winning. Unless one side backs down it will be stalemate.

Then Russia must go home! Do that instead of asking Ukraine to bend over!

[Maeght]

By way of a comment: it seems that from 2014, as well as pre-2012, the Ukrainian language was, in parts of Donbas where the majority are ethnic Russians, encouraged by the government merely for the sake of ensuring loyalty to Ukraine.
Russia has interpreted this as a reason to protect ethnic Russians in those areas, and I can understand their thinking. If the Ukrainian government were to be really honest, they would recognize there to be no need to hold on to control over them.
Maybe this has led to the hyper-nationalism exhibited in Poroshenko's words in 2014 about the people of Odessa being on the right track because they are pro-Ukrainian.

As I understand it Putin did not initially want Donbas to be independent. He only intervened when hypernationalists began to fight with the pro-Russian separatists. He only recognised their independence in 2022, eight years later.

I can't. People being encouraged, in Ukraine, to speak Ukrainian interpreted as being a threat to Russian speakers? Ukraine is an independent nation and is seeking to establish it's own identity so is going to encourage people to speak Ukrainian. Think you need to come up with some better evidence than that Spud.

Essentially Putin wants to control Ukraine. Ukraine wants to be independent and not controlled by Russia. The question is, does Ukraine have the right to independence? What is your position on that and why?

[Aruntraveller]

Putin wasn't prepared for NATO to supply Ukraine.
I am not a Russian shill, just looking objectively at the military side of it and researching the cause.

It is strange how you objectively looking at it always chimes with an autocratic leader's wishes and against the democratically expressed will of a sovereign nation.

The cause is simple. Putin wants to rebuild a Russian empire by subjugating other nations. If he were to "win" in Ukraine, he would not stop there.

[ad_orientem]

Nobody is winning. Unless one side backs down it will be stalemate.

[ad_orientem]

Russia needs to get the fuck out. End of hostilities right there! Don't you agree? Quite simple, isn't it!

[Spud]

Good to see you brushing your teeth, ad.

[ad_orientem]

Nice diversion. Russians have taught you something, at least.

[Spud]

I can't. People being encouraged, in Ukraine, to speak Ukrainian interpreted as being a threat to Russian speakers? Ukraine is an independent nation and is seeking to establish it's own identity so is going to encourage people to speak Ukrainian. Think you need to come up with some better evidence than that Spud.

I have been reading "Language, Status, and State Loyalty in Ukraine" in order to get a better understanding of whether 'genocide' describes what has been happening in Donbas. I would say that the Holodomor was genocide against Ukrainian nationalists, and I wouldn't say at present that Ukraine has recently committed genocide in Donbas, as Putin claims. But the ongoing attacks on civilians in Donetsk might justify Russian military support.

Essentially Putin wants to control Ukraine. Ukraine wants to be independent and not controlled by Russia. The question is, does Ukraine have the right to independence? What is your position on that and why?

Putin wants Ukrainian neutrality.

It is strange how you objectively looking at it always chimes with an autocratic leader's wishes and against the democratically expressed will of a sovereign nation.

The cause is simple. Putin wants to rebuild a Russian empire by subjugating other nations. If he were to "win" in Ukraine, he would not stop there.

I don't agree that Putin wants to rebuild a Russian empire. If he did, why would he be party to the Minsk agreement which kept Donbas as part of Ukraine?

[ad_orientem]

Minsk isn't worth the paper it was written on. Russia also violated it multiple times.

[jeremyp]

The one Putin claims has occurred.

The fictional one. I see.

Perhaps the best evidence I have found that it is taking place is Eva Bartlett's coverage of Ukrainian shelling of residential areas in Donetsk which she says has happened daily for years. But maybe genocide is not the right word for it, war crimes could be more accurate, I don't know. Note, my comment was about the policy of Russia to hold the territory in Kherson north of the river, and possible reasons for it.

Can you explain why, when the Russians invaded, the people in these regions did not welcome them with open arms and why they do welcome the UAF when they liberate the same regions from Russian control?