Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 110177 times)

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #750 on: November 01, 2022, 09:52:17 AM »
There are people who think the West is responsible, because of the expansion of NATO Eastwards.
Those people are wrong.

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The effect of that was predicted long before it happened, as the above link to William Burns shows.

Why did countries of Eastern Europe want to join NATO? It was because they were concerned about the threat from Russia, a concern that has proven justified. So Russia is responsible.

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When the Soviet Union broke up, the main reason for NATO continuing to function was to keep re-unified Germany in check (correct me if that is wrong). That's why the Russians were happy for the US to maintain its presence in Europe.
This is nonsense. Germany was kept in check bu being a member of the EU. NATO continued because the threat from Russia had not gone away.

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Article 10 of NATO includes the condition for a country that joins it that it will contribute to the security of Europe. For a country that's on Russia's border, I would say the best way to do that is to remain neutral.
That didn't work out for Ukraine.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #751 on: November 02, 2022, 04:00:04 PM »
Those people are wrong.

Why did countries of Eastern Europe want to join NATO? It was because they were concerned about the threat from Russia, a concern that has proven justified. So Russia is responsible.
I can see your point. Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic joined not long after the two wars in Chechnya. However, Chechnya was already part of the Russian Federation. Arguably, it had the right to independence, since it had in 1917 gained independence for a bit before being forced to join the Soviet Union, and prior to that it had had ongoing conflict as it tried to resist Russia. Since Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic do not share a border with Russia, I'm not sure that there was a huge threat to them at the time. So I don't quite buy that the Chechnya conflict was evidence of a great threat to Eastern European countries.
But even if it had been, membership of NATO requires no pre-existing conflicts at the time of joining, and a pre-existing threat seems like a similar, albeit less severe, reason not to allow membership, as it means an increased risk of bringing NATO into conflict. It treats NATO as an insurance policy for high risk countries.

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This is nonsense. Germany was kept in check bu being a member of the EU. NATO continued because the threat from Russia had not gone away.
I got the idea from "Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault" which says, "As the Cold War came to a close, Soviet leaders preferred that U.S. forces remain in Europe and NATO stay intact, an arrangement they thought would keep a reunified Germany pacified. But they and their Russian successors did not want NATO to grow any larger and assumed that Western diplomats understood their concerns."
What was the evidence for the continued threat from Russia in 1991?

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That didn't work out for Ukraine.

I still have to read up on Ukraine's attempt to remain neutral prior to 2014.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2022, 10:24:35 AM by Spud »

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #752 on: November 09, 2022, 08:44:49 AM »

Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #753 on: November 09, 2022, 09:42:11 AM »
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #754 on: November 09, 2022, 11:34:27 AM »
I don't mean to be unkind, but he really is a twat.

Who Barry Chuckle, Zelenskyy or Oscar?
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #755 on: November 09, 2022, 03:28:12 PM »

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #756 on: November 11, 2022, 04:41:37 PM »
What Kherson defence doing? A tactical withdrawal is one of the hardest military manouvres, especially when you announce it beforehand. It's now turned into a rout.

Spud, are you still certain Ukraine can't win?
https://twitter.com/thevenetiandoge/status/1591077517729095681?t=CiCXk874MTExHaiFVOj07Q&s=19

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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #757 on: November 12, 2022, 10:34:10 AM »
What Kherson defence doing? A tactical withdrawal is one of the hardest military manouvres, especially when you announce it beforehand. It's now turned into a rout.

Spud, are you still certain Ukraine can't win?
https://twitter.com/thevenetiandoge/status/1591077517729095681?t=CiCXk874MTExHaiFVOj07Q&s=19
Awesome for the people of Kherson. From the Russian perspective it seems like a kind of Dunkirk situation. I've heard that the retreat went smoothly, was covered by Russian air defense and cost Ukraine many casualties over the weeks since it was being planned.
I've begun to understand the war more in the light of the Budapest Memorandum, which has to be a big deal, the West guaranteeing Ukraine's security to ensure nuclear weapons are not kept by Russia's neighbour.
Yes, I think given this perspective Ukraine could win. But I think Russia will still be determined to keep Donbas, Crimea and the land bridge, and also wants to ensure that NATO influence and equipment is kept out of Ukraine, so unless Ukraine can agree to that it will be a long slog.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2022, 10:36:53 AM by Spud »

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #758 on: November 12, 2022, 10:45:33 AM »
Incidentally, Sweden finding an underwater drone laden with explosives but undetonated close to the forth gas pipeline suggests it was not Russia, or they would not be keeping what they now know a secret.

Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #759 on: November 12, 2022, 10:51:07 AM »
Incidentally, Sweden finding an underwater drone laden with explosives but undetonated close to the forth gas pipeline suggests it was not Russia, or they would not be keeping what they now know a secret.

This Hal Turner?

"Hal Turner is so far to the right he made Rush Limbaugh look like a liberal and Sean Hannity seem like a girly-man!"

Credit where credit is due Spud. If there is a right-wing nut job out there you'll find him. It's a shame that you then go on to believe such proven liars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Turner

Always trust a holocaust denier eh?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #760 on: November 12, 2022, 03:48:03 PM »
This Hal Turner?

"Hal Turner is so far to the right he made Rush Limbaugh look like a liberal and Sean Hannity seem like a girly-man!"

Credit where credit is due Spud. If there is a right-wing nut job out there you'll find him. It's a shame that you then go on to believe such proven liars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Turner

Always trust a holocaust denier eh?
Oh pants, I thought the article was referring to current events, but it happened in 2015. Been a busy week....

Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #761 on: November 12, 2022, 03:54:58 PM »
Oh pants, I thought the article was referring to current events, but it happened in 2015. Been a busy week....

Busy enough not to spot a holocaust denier?
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #762 on: November 12, 2022, 06:40:34 PM »
Busy enough not to spot a holocaust denier?
Even busier

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #763 on: November 13, 2022, 06:19:29 PM »
Busy enough not to spot a holocaust denier?

Hell of an ad hominem you've got there.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #764 on: November 13, 2022, 07:27:22 PM »
Hell of an ad hominem you've got there.

Not really. Just questioning the workings of a mind that takes the word of a proven liar as gospel. Holocaust denial is the most extreme example of it as exhibited by Hal Turner. Anyone who takes more than cursory glance at the website can see what he is. 
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #765 on: November 14, 2022, 12:48:36 PM »
Not really. Just questioning the workings of a mind that takes the word of a proven liar as gospel. Holocaust denial is the most extreme example of it as exhibited by Hal Turner. Anyone who takes more than cursory glance at the website can see what he is.

Being horribly wrong on one topic does not make you definitely wrong on another. Whilst I would treat Hal Turner's pronouncements on the war in Ukraine with extreme scepticism, I would not dismiss them out of hand just because he is a Holocaust denier.
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Aruntraveller

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #766 on: November 14, 2022, 12:55:17 PM »
Being horribly wrong on one topic does not make you definitely wrong on another. Whilst I would treat Hal Turner's pronouncements on the war in Ukraine with extreme scepticism, I would not dismiss them out of hand just because he is a Holocaust denier.

I wouldn't either, but as I said a cursory glance at this Turner fellers pronouncements would lead you to treat his remarks in much the same way that you would Putin's.

In other words, I'd like to see verifiable evidence supporting their claims from the Pope, the AofB, Desmond Tutu, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela and Fred next door before I would believe them.
Before we work on Artificial Intelligence shouldn't we address the problem of natural stupidity.

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #767 on: November 14, 2022, 01:35:54 PM »
Being horribly wrong on one topic does not make you definitely wrong on another. Whilst I would treat Hal Turner's pronouncements on the war in Ukraine with extreme scepticism, I would not dismiss them out of hand just because he is a Holocaust denier.
Is his being a holocaust denier a factor in your extreme scepticism?

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #768 on: November 14, 2022, 02:42:55 PM »
I've been reading some articles by George H Eliason after he was interviewed on Redacted a week or two ago. He is an American journalist who has lived in Donbas for 10 years. I think I found the link from my post 758 on his Twitter page.
The date of the article is October 2022, and its wording can be interpreted as though the discovery of the drone was after the  recent sabotage of the pipeline.
I guess the main take away is that sabotage has been attempted before.

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #769 on: November 15, 2022, 05:51:10 PM »
I've been reading some articles by George H Eliason after he was interviewed on Redacted a week or two ago. He is an American journalist who has lived in Donbas for 10 years. I think I found the link from my post 758 on his Twitter page.
The date of the article is October 2022, and its wording can be interpreted as though the discovery of the drone was after the  recent sabotage of the pipeline.
I guess the main take away is that sabotage has been attempted before.

What do you think of the most recent missile attacks on Ukrainian civilians?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63638859
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #770 on: November 15, 2022, 06:48:07 PM »
Two missiles headed for Lviv have apparently strayed and landed in Poland, killing two people. I'll try and find a link. If true, Article 5 those bastards and go all the way to Moscow!
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #771 on: November 15, 2022, 06:49:40 PM »
Two missiles headed for Lviv have apparently strayed and landed in Poland, killing two people. I'll try and find a link. If true, Article 5 those bastards and go all the way to Moscow!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/world/1697080/russia-poland-missle-dead-NATO-state-Ukraine-war-pictures-world-war-3/amp
« Last Edit: November 15, 2022, 07:11:23 PM by ad_orientem »
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #772 on: November 15, 2022, 08:08:12 PM »
What do you think of the most recent missile attacks on Ukrainian civilians?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63638859
I think their government needs to negotiate instead of sacrificing its entire population to its Bandera god.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #773 on: November 15, 2022, 08:12:30 PM »
Two missiles headed for Lviv have apparently strayed and landed in Poland, killing two people. I'll try and find a link. If true, Article 5 those bastards and go all the way to Moscow!
If what I've read recently is correct, the donating of weapons to Ukrainian nationalists by the US is illegal in America, since it encourages another country to attack a country with which the US is at peace.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #774 on: November 15, 2022, 08:14:18 PM »
I think their government needs to negotiate instead of sacrificing its entire population to its Bandera god.

Piss off, Russian Nazi lover!
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Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.