Arming the Ukrainians

[Maeght]

I think their government needs to negotiate instead of sacrificing its entire population to its Bandera god.

Poor response.

[Aruntraveller]

If what I've read recently is correct, the donating of weapons to Ukrainian nationalists by the US is illegal in America, since it encourages another country to attack a country with which the US is at peace.

If what I've read recently is correct Russia invaded Ukraine. Your wrong-headed attempts at putting up straw men tp divert attention from this fact are pathetic.

You are so concerned about Ukrainian nationalists and yet you ignore the rather blatant and obvious nationalism of Putin.

Your denial in various areas around this conflict is truly impressive.

[ad_orientem]

When did you start simping for dictators, Spud? Was it when you started reading The Grayzone?

[jeremyp]

Biden is saying that the missile that hit Poland is unlikely to be Russian.

[jeremyp]

I think their government needs to negotiate instead of sacrificing its entire population to its Bandera god.

It didn’t occur to you to suggest Russia could stop targeting civilians?

What the hell is wrong with you?

[ad_orientem]

Biden is saying that the missile that hit Poland is unlikely to be Russian.

I think it's quite certain it's Russian made, at least. I think that's been more or less been confirmed. The question is where it came from. Surely they must already know. As I understand, there's a NATO radar station only 40km away.

[Maeght]

I think it's quite certain it's Russian made, at least. I think that's been more or less been confirmed. The question is where it came from. Surely they must already know. As I understand, there's a NATO radar station only 40km away.

On the BBC website it says 'The Associated Press news agency is quoting three US officials as saying a preliminary assessment suggests the missile that hit Poland was fired by Ukrainian forces at an incoming Russian missile. The officials, who are not authorised to discuss the matter publicly, spoke to AP on the condition of anonymity.'

[ad_orientem]

This just about nails it, I think.

https://twitter.com/bctallis/status/1592775424001847296?t=E5xwp7GF1XL9LJTu7vdzlw&s=19

[Spud]

When did you start simping for dictators, Spud? Was it when you started reading The Grayzone?

https://www.opednews.com/populum/page.php?f=Odessa--the-First-Pogrom-by-George-Eliason-Activism-Anti-War_Civil-Disobedience_Class-War_Obama-Warmonger-140507-595.html

[Spud]

Disturbing

[Maeght]

Disturbing

Is that a reliable source?

'An August 2020 report by the U.S. State Department Global Engagement Center stated that Global Research is, by a significant margin, the most accessed proxy website allied with the pro-Kremlin disinformation campaign. By the estimation of report's authors, it has accumulated 12.4 million page views, with around 351,247 readers for each article. Chossudovsky is a board member of other pro-Russian websites which attempt to spread conspiracy theories. Responding via his lawyer, this time to CBC News, Chossudovsky again denied the 2020 accusations made against him.'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky#Centre_for_Research_on_Globalization

[jeremyp]

Disturbing

The Russians can stop the starvation today by withdrawing from Ukraine.

[jeremyp]

This just about nails it, I think.

https://twitter.com/bctallis/status/1592775424001847296?t=E5xwp7GF1XL9LJTu7vdzlw&s=19

Not completely. Ukraine's allies are already doing pretty much everything they can to help Ukraine win this war, short of engaging with their own armed forces. What more do you want?

It looks increasingly likely that the missile that killed two people in Poland was a Ukrainian air defence missile that missed its target. It was a tragic accident. It is, however, true that it wouldn't have happened if Russia wasn't trying to terror bomb Ukrainian civilians.

[ad_orientem]

Not completely. Ukraine's allies are already doing pretty much everything they can to help Ukraine win this war, short of engaging with their own armed forces. What more do you want?

ATACMS, Abrams, F-16's.

[jeremyp]

ATACMS, Abrams, F-16's.

I doubt the Abrams and F-16's would be of much use to Ukraine. They don't have anybody who can maintain them. ATACMS might be of some use but probably not enough to significantly shorten the war.

[Spud]

That didn't work out for Ukraine.

In 2013-14 I was very preoccupied, so I didn't really take in much of the events in Ukraine. Have recently found this Guradian article from September 2013 which describes Russia's warning to Ukraine about the consequences of signing a free trade agreement with the EU. It would not be able to join a customs union with Belarus, Russia and Kazakhstan as well. Russia points out that it is Ukraine's main creditor, and warns of financial collapse; also that signing the EU deal would violate the Russian–Ukrainian Friendship Treaty. I've underlined a couple of bits I found interesting:

Instead, he said, signing the agreement would make the default of Ukraine inevitable and Moscow would not offer any helping hand. "Russia is the main creditor of Ukraine. Only with customs union with Russia can Ukraine balance its trade," he said. Russia has already slapped import restrictions on certain Ukrainian products and Glazyev did not rule out further sanctions if the agreement was signed.

The Kremlin aide added that the political and social cost of EU integration could also be high, and allowed for the possibility of separatist movements springing up in the Russian-speaking east and south of Ukraine. He suggested that if Ukraine signed the agreement, Russia would consider the bilateral treaty that delineates the countries' borders to be void.

"We don't want to use any kind of blackmail. This is a question for the Ukrainian people," said Glazyev. "But legally, signing this agreement about association with EU, the Ukrainian government violates the treaty on strategic partnership and friendship with Russia." When this happened, he said, Russia could no longer guarantee Ukraine's status as a state and could possibly intervene if pro-Russian regions of the country appealed directly to Moscow.

[jeremyp]

In 2013-14 I was very preoccupied, so I didn't really take in much of the events in Ukraine. Have recently found this Guradian article from September 2013 which describes Russia's warning to Ukraine about the consequences of signing a free trade agreement with the EU. It would not be able to join a customs union with Belarus, Russia and Kazakhstan as well. Russia points out that it is Ukraine's main creditor, and warns of financial collapse; also that signing the EU deal would violate the Russian–Ukrainian Friendship Treaty. I've underlined a couple of bits I found interesting:

And that justifies a full scale invasion of Ukraine how?

It reads like Russia was trying extortion on an independent country.

[ad_orientem]

But it's all bullshit, Spud. What they want, and what they've always wanted, is to make Ukrainians into good little Russians. Russia always lies. All the way up to this war the majority of even western media fell for Russian disinformation, everything from banning Russian to Neo-Nazis and US biolabs. Fortunately the West woke up, albeit too late.

If anything is clear from this war, it's that Russia cannot exist in its current form anymore. The first step is Ukrainian victory and Russian defeat all the way up to 1992 borders. Break-up of Russian federation. De-militarisation and re-education of Russians. Russia is a stain on civilisation. History doesn't lie. Entire history is one of aggression and genocide.

The idea of the "Russian world" (Russkyi mir) is the problem, and it's embeded into the mind of nearly every Russian, even so-called reformers like Navalny.

[Spud]

If anything is clear from this war, it's that Russia cannot exist in its current form anymore. The first step is Ukrainian victory and Russian defeat all the way up to 1992 borders. Break-up of Russian federation. De-militarisation and re-education of Russians. Russia is a stain on civilisation. History doesn't lie. Entire history is one of aggression and genocide.

The Russians know that you and others are saying this. That's why they have a nuclear deterrent.

[Spud]

It didn’t occur to you to suggest Russia could stop targeting civilians?

What the hell is wrong with you?

I recently came across a quote from the Washington Post: "Increasingly, Ukrainians are confronting an uncomfortable truth: The military’s understandable impulse to defend against Russian attacks could be putting civilians in the crosshairs. Virtually every neighborhood in most cities has become militarized, some more than others, making them potential targets for Russian forces trying to take out Ukrainian defenses....Ukraine’s strategy of placing heavy military equipment and other fortifications in civilian zones could weaken Western and Ukrainian efforts to hold Russia legally culpable for possible war crimes."

[Spud]

What do you think of the most recent missile attacks on Ukrainian civilians?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63638859

They seem to have targeted power stations and air defenses? I think this possibly is to do with stopping NATO weapons being brought near to the four annexed regions.

[jeremyp]

The Russians know that you and others are saying this. That's why they have a nuclear deterrent.

No, they have a nuclear deterrent as a legacy of the days when the Soviet Union was opposed to the USA.

[jeremyp]

I recently came across a quote from the Washington Post: "Increasingly, Ukrainians are confronting an uncomfortable truth: The military’s understandable impulse to defend against Russian attacks could be putting civilians in the crosshairs. Virtually every neighborhood in most cities has become militarized, some more than others, making them potential targets for Russian forces trying to take out Ukrainian defenses....Ukraine’s strategy of placing heavy military equipment and other fortifications in civilian zones could weaken Western and Ukrainian efforts to hold Russia legally culpable for possible war crimes."

What about Russia's strategy of invading Ukraine and trying to genocide its citizens. Have you got nothing to say about that?

Sure Russian attacks are putting Ukrainian citizens in their crosshairs. If they hadn't invaded, there would be no crosshairs.


Ukraine is in an existential war at the moment. How do you not understand this? If they weakened their resolve in any way, Ukraine will soon cease to exist.

[Spud]

If what I've read recently is correct Russia invaded Ukraine. Your wrong-headed attempts at putting up straw men tp divert attention from this fact are pathetic.

You are so concerned about Ukrainian nationalists and yet you ignore the rather blatant and obvious nationalism of Putin.

Your denial in various areas around this conflict is truly impressive.

If you go to this YouTube video you will find a link in the description to a documentary made by RT about 2014-2022 in Donbass.
It gives insight into why Russia went in.
https://youtu.be/4ORiKtKCsaw

[Spud]

No, they have a nuclear deterrent as a legacy of the days when the Soviet Union was opposed to the USA.

And they still have it for the reason I gave.