Arming the Ukrainians

[Spud]

Do you understand what the bit I highlighted in bold actually means? It's means Russia invaded Ukraine. They didn't have to, but they did. Nobody asked them to invade. Nobody forced them to invade. Russia could stop the bloodshed tomorrow by withdrawing from Ukraine. They won't do it though because Putin's job is more important to him than the lives of Ukrainians and Russians.

As Khodakovsky said (and this is referring to the 2022 SMO) the militia realised that Kiev was planning to retake Donbas, and because the militia had reduced their troops to 10,000 after the Minsk agreement, and would therefore not be able to defend against the Ukrainian army, they asked Russia for help.

[Maeght]

Was talking about pre-2014 economic ties

Were they within their rights to end those ties?

[Sebastian Toe]

Were they within their rights to end those ties?

I'm sure that relatively recently, one country severed quite a lot of ties that it had with it's neighbours.
I don't recall anyone calling for armed conflict because if it!

 

[Maeght]

I'm sure that relatively recently, one country severed quite a lot of ties that it had with it's neighbours.
I don't recall anyone calling for armed conflict because if it!

 

Absolutely. I'm trying to clarify the langue being used - 'Let Ukraine go' 'Allow it to forfeit'

[Spud]

Absolutely. I'm trying to clarify the langue being used - 'Let Ukraine go' 'Allow it to forfeit'

"We said, 'of course, if Ukraine has come to this decision, this is it's choice and we respect this choice. But we don't have to pay for it' ".

[Maeght]

"We said, 'of course, if Ukraine has come to this decision, this is it's choice and we respect this choice. But we don't have to pay for it' ".

I was questioning your language.

[ad_orientem]

Ruskies and their supporters are coping hard after this.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65132527

[Outrider]

As Khodakovsky said (and this is referring to the 2022 SMO) the militia realised that Kiev was planning to retake Donbas, and because the militia had reduced their troops to 10,000 after the Minsk agreement, and would therefore not be able to defend against the Ukrainian army, they asked Russia for help.

So the Russian-sponsored militia illegally trying to militarily secede from Ukraine was likely to be retaken by the government of the country it's in, so Russia decided to get their terrorists in the country to set up a smokescreen excuse for the third actual, and second military invasion, of Ukraine in the last ten years.

O.

[Spud]

So the Russian-sponsored militia illegally trying to militarily secede from Ukraine

It was the opposition usurping power using assault rifles at Maidan, Feb 2014, that was illegal, not Odessa, Kharkov, Lugansk and Donetsk regions declaring independence after those events.

was likely to be retaken by the government of the country it's in,

who had refused to recognise Donbass as two autonomous states within Ukraine as the Minsk agreement stipulated they should

so Russia decided to get their terrorists in the country to set up a smokescreen excuse for the third actual, and second military invasion, of Ukraine in the last ten years.

O.

What terrorists and what smokescreen excuse?

[ad_orientem]

You can tell you're a ruSSia shill just by the way you spell those names. It's Kharkiv, Odesa, Donbas and Luhansk.

[jeremyp]

As Khodakovsky said (and this is referring to the 2022 SMO) the militia realised that Kiev was planning to retake Donbas, and because the militia had reduced their troops to 10,000 after the Minsk agreement, and would therefore not be able to defend against the Ukrainian army, they asked Russia for help.

Who gives a flying fuck about the militia that was conducting an illegal war in part of Ukraine?

[Outrider]

It was the opposition usurping power using assault rifles at Maidan, Feb 2014, that was illegal

Arguably, but they were responding to a democratically elected leader deliberately contradicting the platform on which he'd been elected against the express will of the people. Either way, that's a purely internal Ukrainian matter, not something for Russia to get itself involved with.

not Odessa, Kharkov, Lugansk and Donetsk regions declaring independence after those events.

Not 'after those events', but rather 'after occupation by a hostile foreign military force'. Apart from Russia, is there anyone that accepts that the 'referenda' leading to those declarations was free and fair? The UN certainly doesn't - see here.

who had refused to recognise Donbass as two autonomous states within Ukraine as the Minsk agreement stipulated they should

That would be the Minsk agreement (actually Minsk II, given the complete failure of the first) that said control of the borders reverted to the Ukrainian authority, and which Russia continued to send personnel over coordinating with their sponsored stooges in the contested regions? That Minsk agreeement? The one that included a ceasefire that the 'rebel' forces in Donbass and Luhansk never complied with, that Minsk agreement? That Minks agreement which, again, is a PURELY INTERNAL UKRAINIAN MATTER.

What terrorists and what smokescreen excuse?

See above about a freely elected president (unlike the first time he 'won' when the result was overturned because of widespread corruption and voter intimidation) who turns his back on the will of the public to favour his (presumably) personal ties with Russia, then the continued identification by groups such as the European Parliament, the US security services and the British intelligence apparatus of Russian state sponsorship of terrorist activities, including arming and maintaining militias in Ukraine and the continued illegal occupation of the Crimean peninsula.

O.

[ad_orientem]

Putin really is a master strategist. Today Finland becomes a full member of NATO, doubling Muskovy's border with the alliance.

[Spud]

Arguably, but they were responding to a democratically elected leader deliberately contradicting the platform on which he'd been elected against the express will of the people. Either way, that's a purely internal Ukrainian matter, not something for Russia to get itself involved with.

He suspended the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement, yes, because it would have limited Ukrainian access to the Russian market and Europe wouldn't provide enough economic loss balancing. So the US and Germany used fascist militia to help a pro-NATO regime get into power. That's what divided the country, and why Russia got involved.

[Spud]

That would be the Minsk agreement (actually Minsk II, given the complete failure of the first) that said control of the borders reverted to the Ukrainian authority, and which Russia continued to send personnel over coordinating with their sponsored stooges in the contested regions? That Minsk agreeement? The one that included a ceasefire that the 'rebel' forces in Donbass and Luhansk never complied with, that Minsk agreement? That Minks agreement which, again, is a PURELY INTERNAL UKRAINIAN MATTER.

Yes, the one which Hollande and Merkel recently admitted was signed to allow Ukraine time to re-arm.

[ad_orientem]

Yes, the one which Hollande and Merkel recently admitted was signed to allow Ukraine time to re-arm.

Both sides broke the Minsk agreements. They weren't worth the paper they were written on. RuSSia and its shills really need to shut up about it.

[Spud]

See above about a freely elected president (unlike the first time he 'won' when the result was overturned because of widespread corruption and voter intimidation) who turns his back on the will of the public to favour his (presumably) personal ties with Russia, then the continued identification by groups such as the European Parliament, the US security services and the British intelligence apparatus of Russian state sponsorship of terrorist activities, including arming and maintaining militias in Ukraine and the continued illegal occupation of the Crimean peninsula.

O.

Arming militias, illegal occupation, as in protecting the population?
The following is taken from the Ukraine on Fire documentary.
Crimean authorities, sensing the mood of the populace, fully supported the decision to postpone the EU association deal. After Maidan they declared, based on the will of the people that elected them, that they would "not give the Crimea to extremists and (fill in the blank) seeking to seize power in Ukraine at the cost of the blood of the country and its citizens."
Crimeans feared that the newly elected authorities in Kiev would be merciless to those who opposed them. This led to the pro-Russian demonstrations rejecting the new government in Kiev, followed by their decision to join the Russian Federation (for protection).

[Spud]

Putin really is a master strategist. Today Finland becomes a full member of NATO, doubling Muskovy's border with the alliance.

To quote Putin in 2016, "Why do we react so vehemently to NATO's expansion? We are concerned with the decision-making process. I know how decisions are made. As soon as the country becomes a member of NATO, it can't resist the pressure of the USA. And very soon anything at all can appear in such country - missile defense systems, new bases or, if necessary, new missile strike systems. What should we do? We need to take countermeasures, meaning, to aim our rocket systems at the new facilities which we consider to be threatening us. The situation gets tense. Sometimes I don't quite understand the logic of our partners. Sometimes it looks like they need an external enemy to keep in leash, and establish discipline in their own so-called Western European bloc. And despite all the concerns, Iran doesn't live up to it."

[ad_orientem]

To quote Putin in 2016, "Why do we react so vehemently to NATO's expansion? We are concerned with the decision-making process. I know how decisions are made. As soon as the country becomes a member of NATO, it can't resist the pressure of the USA. And very soon anything at all can appear in such country - missile defense systems, new bases or, if necessary, new missile strike systems. What should we do? We need to take countermeasures, meaning, to aim our rocket systems at the new facilities which we consider to be threatening us. The situation gets tense. Sometimes I don't quite understand the logic of our partners. Sometimes it looks like they need an external enemy to keep in leash, and establish discipline in their own so-called Western European bloc. And despite all the concerns, Iran doesn't live up to it."

Really, we couldn't give at shit what they think anymore! The brilliance of it all is we've strengthened our defence and really pissed of the moskals.

[jeremyp]

To quote Putin in 2016, "Why do we react so vehemently to NATO's expansion? We are concerned with the decision-making process. I know how decisions are made. As soon as the country becomes a member of NATO, it can't resist the pressure of the USA.

US pressure is nothing compared to Russian pressure.

And very soon anything at all can appear in such country - missile defense systems, new bases or, if necessary, new missile strike systems. What should we do? We need to take countermeasures, meaning, to aim our rocket systems at the new facilities which we consider to be threatening us.

They wouldn't have the missile systems if Russia was clearly not interested in imperialist expansionism.

The situation gets tense. Sometimes I don't quite understand the logic of our partners. Sometimes it looks like they need an external enemy to keep in leash, and establish discipline in their own so-called Western European bloc. And despite all the concerns, Iran doesn't live up to it."

Until Russia invaded Ukraine, there was no prospect of Finland, Sweden or Ukraine itself joining NATO. Putin has single handedly pushed two countries in to NATO and once he is expelled from Ukraine, I suspect they will be attempting to join at the first opportunity.

All this invasion has done is strengthened NATO. Putin has reminded its members why it exists and provided a compelling reason for other countries on Russia's borders to join.

[Spud]

US pressure is nothing compared to Russian pressure.

Can you give an example of this russian pressure? We've seen Joe Biden promise to prevent Russia selling gas to Germany via the Nord Stream pipelines, at a press conference last year. What's worse than promising to cut off the gas supply to your ally?

They wouldn't have the missile systems if Russia was clearly not interested in imperialist expansionism.

Aren't you thinking of Soviet Russia? Modern Russia isn't interested in expansionism. The proof: they agreed to Donbas autonomy within Ukraine. Then waited until last year before recognising the two regions as independent.

Until Russia invaded Ukraine, there was no prospect of Finland, Sweden or Ukraine itself joining NATO. Putin has single handedly pushed two countries in to NATO and once he is expelled from Ukraine, I suspect they will be attempting to join at the first opportunity.

All this invasion has done is strengthened NATO. Putin has reminded its members why it exists and provided a compelling reason for other countries on Russia's borders to join.

Russia wants to invade Sweden or Finland?

NATO is out of shells, so if anything is weaker now having sent much of its reserves to be used up in Ukraine.

[ad_orientem]

Whilst the terrorist state ruSSia chairs the UN security council, at the same time committing genocide in Ukraine, a new video has emerged of a group of ruSSian soldiers cutting the head of a captured Ukrainian. If anyone tells me that every last invader shouldn't become sunflower fertiliser, go and watch the fucking video. Fucking animals everyone. Subhumans!

[jeremyp]

Can you give an example of this russian pressure?

Oh, I don't know, let me see...

... oh yes: Russia invades foreign countries that don't toe the line.

Aren't you thinking of Soviet Russia? Modern Russia isn't interested in expansionism.

This is a joke right? You surely can't think that the country that first illegally annexed Crimea and then invaded Ukraine is not expansionist?

NATO is out of shells, so if anything is weaker now having sent much of its reserves to be used up in Ukraine.

You can make more shells.

[Outrider]

Arming militias, illegal occupation, as in protecting the population?

Even if the intent were to 'protect the population' - which is at best questionable - you don't put out a fire by throwing petrol on it.

The following is taken from the Ukraine on Fire documentary.

The overtly pro-Russian documentary by consistently pro-Putin Oliver Stone in collaboration with the preferred interviewer of authoritarian despots Igor Lopatonok. Pretty much every critic of that film, from all sides of the political spectrum, make the point that it is at best significantly partial, when it's not outright misrepresentative or lying.

O.

[Spud]

Whilst the terrorist state ruSSia chairs the UN security council, at the same time committing genocide in Ukraine, a new video has emerged of a group of ruSSian soldiers cutting the head of a captured Ukrainian. If anyone tells me that every last invader shouldn't become sunflower fertiliser, go and watch the fucking video. Fucking animals everyone. Subhumans!

Have you seen any more on this, ad_o?