Arming the Ukrainians

[Spud]

Oh, I don't know, let me see...

... oh yes: Russia invades foreign countries that don't toe the line.

Or that it views as a threat?

This is a joke right? You surely can't think that the country that first illegally annexed Crimea and then invaded Ukraine is not expansionist?

Yes, if it has genuine reasons to do so.

You can make more shells.

[Spud]

Even if the intent were to 'protect the population' - which is at best questionable - you don't put out a fire by throwing petrol on it.

The overtly pro-Russian documentary by consistently pro-Putin Oliver Stone in collaboration with the preferred interviewer of authoritarian despots Igor Lopatonok. Pretty much every critic of that film, from all sides of the political spectrum, make the point that it is at best significantly partial, when it's not outright misrepresentative or lying.

O.

Other documentaries are available, which show that the Ukrainian military has been conducting a war of attrition on Donbas since 2014, regularly shelling civilians to destroy their morale.

[Spud]

Worrying,
"DPR separatist Pavel Gubarev vows to ‘exterminate’ all Ukrainians who refuse to join Russia"

[Spud]

For the record, in reply to this comment on Youtube,

It's always "Ukraine should just roll over and get conquered for 'peace'" and never "Russia should pull out of its unjustified invasion of other countries for actual peace" with these people. I imagine these guys would also tell rape victims that they should just lie down and take it 'for safety’, instead of saying that we should discourage and penalize rape.

This was an interesting reply:

No, sorry, you don’t imagine it right. You are comparing cognitive processes but the chains of causality in the two cases are different. In international relations between states one can often observe a typical pattern that is usually referred to as the “security trap”. One state, in this case Ucraine, at some point starts “assuming” that a threat could possibly come from another state (Russia). To increase its security it seeks protection (in this case under the umbrella of NATO) and starts increasing  its investment in weapons. The other state (Russia) reacts likewise increasing its defenses, since it “interprets” the strategy of the neighbor as hostile. The process keeps evolving and escalating until one of the two states (in this case Russia) attacks the other to eliminate the perceived threat with a pre-emptive strike.
To prevent such an outcome,  the general principle is for each state to avoid pursuing its own security at the expense of that of others. It is well documented that Ucraine has started its relationship with NATO back in 1994 and that has formally requested NATO membership in 2008, even if Russia had made it clear all along that it would consider this a threat to its own security. That’s not to blame Ukraine for the Russian invasion. One can argue that Russia overreacted to the possibility of Ukraine NATO membership (though a statement of intent had been formally reiterated as late as June 2021). And certainly Russia did break international law in February 2022 by invading a sovereign country (though US contravened UN provisions by heavily interfering with the internal affairs of Ukraine over many years, particularly during the coup of 2014).
But whatever your assessment of Russian invasion, it is not possible to compare it with a “rape”. In such circumstances the woman is usually not attacked by the stalker because of his perception of a threat. The woman is acting only following the attack. Therefore a “diplomatic” attempt would not be of any use to the woman, at least in the sense that she would be raped anyway. On the other end, a diplomatic solution between Ukraine and Russia could (though at this late stage only partially) revert to the very causes that triggered the attack in the first place, if agreement could be found in assuring acceptable security to both parties.

[Outrider]

Other documentaries are available, which show that the Ukrainian military has been conducting a war of attrition on Donbas since 2014, regularly shelling civilians to destroy their morale.

Or, perhaps, Ukraine has been conducting military operations against the Russian sponsored separatists and occupied positions. There is no credible evidence I've seen of Ukraine bombing civilians.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Ukraine attempting to kill Putin?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65471904

[ad_orientem]

Ukraine attempting to kill Putin?


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65471904

Definitely a false flag.

[Dicky Underpants]

Definitely a false flag.

Do they really need such a pathetic demonstration to justify further atrocities against Ukraine? I mean, they haven't given a flying fuck so far. I find it puzzling: there are suggestions that it came from Russian dissidents, but Putin has effectively silenced and disempowered them all. And Ukraine itself would hardly do anything so stupid, particularly as they would have known that Putin would not be in residence.
Still, Russia has so far shown all the imagination of a lobotomised tape-worm, so you may be right.

[jeremyp]

Definitely a false flag.

Some good reasons to believe it’s not a false flag operation, or at least, not sponsored by the Kremlin

https://youtu.be/jabKKr3pstU

[ad_orientem]

Today is Finnish identity day. Our national poet, Eino Leino, wrote a poem about Ukraine in 1917. Here's an English translation.

Greetings Ukraine! May your honour ring out.
As a cry for the dawning tomorrow!
May your strength and the flame of your love
demand, make a free land!
Proud Ukraine! Do not falter now!
Tha dawn of the nations will come one day.
Calmly and steadily repel your peril,
or flash fire if need be!

Beautiful Ukraine, the salt of nations!
You have the flag and we have the road.
With you in the storm stand Finland and Poland,
Also Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania.
Forwards, Ukraine! You are not a slave,
If you yourself wish and want it.
Do you hear the choir great and graceful
Like the sea of nations fading?

New Ukraine, wonderful, vast!
Your wide streams glimmer,
And in your purple flowers of freedom blossom
Mordovia, Grusinia, Perm and the rest!
The time has come for the peoples of Europe to rise;
break the chains imposed by the Tzars!
Shine; Ukraine! Ready your bow,
shine the road of Republics to come!

[Nearly Sane]

F-16s to be supplied but how long does that mean we think the war will go on.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65649471

[jeremyp]

F-16s to be supplied but how long does that mean we think the war will go on.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65649471

Unless Ukraine makes major breakthroughs soon and/or Russia collapses, this war is headed for a stalemate. It will either be over at the end of the summer or go on for years.

That's my theory.

[ad_orientem]

Then we really need to give Ukraine everything it needs. Everything! Sod any threats ruSSia makes.

[jeremyp]

Then we really need to give Ukraine everything it needs. Everything! Sod any threats ruSSia makes.

That's pretty much what is happening.

[Spud]

This answers my questions about the nuclear weapons inherited by Ukraine and the security assurances (not guarantees) given to it when they were destroyed:
https://www.kcl.ac.uk/would-russia-have-invaded-ukraine-if-soviet-nuclear-weapons-had-remained-on-ukrainian-soil
I had thought these weapons belonged to Ukraine alone.

[ad_orientem]

All kicking off in Bilhorod!

[jeremyp]

All kicking off in Bilhorod!

What's kicking off?

[ad_orientem]

What's kicking off?

Free Russians that have been fighting for Ukraine have invaded Belgorod Oblast. Nothing too significant but they've already liberated a couple of villages. Stupid Russians thought the war would never come home.

[ad_orientem]

https://twitter.com/yasminalombaert/status/1660614268171976704?s=19

Apparently they've already shot down a Russian helicopter as well.

[jeremyp]

All kicking off in Bilhorod!

Free Russians that have been fighting for Ukraine have invaded Belgorod Oblast. Nothing too significant but they've already liberated a couple of villages. Stupid Russians thought the war would never come home.

That makes more sense. Bilhorod is a place in Ukraine near Moldova

[ad_orientem]

That makes more sense. Bilhorod is a place in Ukraine near Moldova

Bilhorod is also Ukrainian for Belgorod, I believe.

[ad_orientem]

Maybe Russia could just give up Belgorod, Kursk, and Bryansk, for peace!

[Dicky Underpants]

What are they sucking on?

[ad_orientem]

What are they sucking on?

The same as what Putin's sucking on.

[ad_orientem]

RuSSia blows up the Nova Khakovka hydroelectric damn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADYVikvpmOM