Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 109829 times)

ad_orientem

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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1101 on: July 21, 2023, 03:05:12 PM »
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1102 on: July 21, 2023, 03:30:34 PM »
Wait, what? The Russians lied? I can't believe it.

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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1103 on: July 21, 2023, 05:19:16 PM »
This may not be a name that is familiar to everyone but Igor Girkin has been arrested in ruSSia on charges of extremism. He is the main culprit in the shooting down of MH17. He has been very critical of Putin's and especially Shoigu's handling of the so-called SMO. He also led the occupation of Crimea in 2014 and later Donbas. Girkin's arrest is a good thing because, despite being a fascist and a convicted war criminal, he is occasionally capable of lucid thought. Hopefully he doesn't return and the age old Russian tradition of negative selection continues. Only morons and "yes" men should be left.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2023, 05:42:49 PM by ad_orientem »
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SteveH

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1104 on: July 23, 2023, 07:13:45 AM »
« Last Edit: July 23, 2023, 10:57:04 AM by Nearly Sane »
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1105 on: July 23, 2023, 10:00:40 AM »
This may not be a name that is familiar to everyone but Igor Girkin has been arrested in ruSSia on charges of extremism. He is the main culprit in the shooting down of MH17. He has been very critical of Putin's and especially Shoigu's handling of the so-called SMO. He also led the occupation of Crimea in 2014 and later Donbas. Girkin's arrest is a good thing because, despite being a fascist and a convicted war criminal, he is occasionally capable of lucid thought. Hopefully he doesn't return and the age old Russian tradition of negative selection continues. Only morons and "yes" men should be left.
In what way was he critical? I've heard that some Russian officials wanted a more 'shock-and-awe' type of operation, but that Putin felt that to be wrong because of the close ties between the two countries.

Re Crimea, the population didn't seem to mind Russia taking over.

Maybe he is wrong about Odessa, thinking that burning protestors to death would have been the end of it?

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1106 on: July 23, 2023, 01:16:20 PM »
Should Zelensky disarm?

https://peacenews.info/node/10589/zelenskyy-seeking-way-out

The doesn't seem to be about disarmament but whether Ukraine should insist on having Crimea returned.

The answer to your question is obviously no, it would be insane for Ukraine to lay down its arms now.
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1107 on: July 23, 2023, 01:18:30 PM »
Only morons and "yes" men should be left.

The trouble with that is that there is no hope of Russia ending the war if it's just Putin, yes-men and morons in charge.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1108 on: July 28, 2023, 07:28:42 PM »

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1109 on: July 29, 2023, 11:41:20 AM »
They moved Christmas



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66341617

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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1110 on: July 29, 2023, 01:39:37 PM »
Changed calendars with one in sync with the cosmos.

They were already using the Gregorian calendar. All that's happened is the public holiday for Christmas has mov ed to the same day that the Ukrainian Orthodox church is celebrating it.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1111 on: July 29, 2023, 06:59:22 PM »
They were already using the Gregorian calendar. All that's happened is the public holiday for Christmas has mov ed to the same day that the Ukrainian Orthodox church is celebrating it.

Indeed.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1112 on: July 29, 2023, 08:30:54 PM »
Jeremy, you said in a post, which I can't find, that Ukraine tried neutrality but that it didn't work for them. Putin recently said in a meeting with African leaders concerning peace proposals, that "Kiev obtained its independence during the dissolution of the Soviet Union, based on the declaration of independence, and this declaration states clearly that Ukraine is a neutral state. This is of principle importance to us; it is not quite clear for us, why the West started pulling Ukraine into NATO", adding that, in Moscow's opinion, this is what poses a fundamental threat to Russia's interests.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2023, 08:33:42 PM by Spud »

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1113 on: July 30, 2023, 10:42:22 AM »
Jeremy, you said in a post, which I can't find, that Ukraine tried neutrality but that it didn't work for them. Putin recently said in a meeting with African leaders concerning peace proposals, that "Kiev obtained its independence during the dissolution of the Soviet Union, based on the declaration of independence, and this declaration states clearly that Ukraine is a neutral state. This is of principle importance to us; it is not quite clear for us, why the West started pulling Ukraine into NATO", adding that, in Moscow's opinion, this is what poses a fundamental threat to Russia's interests.

The West didn't start pulling Ukraine into NATO until Russia invaded. Putin is lying.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1114 on: July 30, 2023, 02:25:34 PM »
The West didn't start pulling Ukraine into NATO until Russia invaded. Putin is lying.
He said "it is not quite clear for us, why the West started pulling Ukraine into NATO". That isn't a lie. Your statement, "because Russia invaded" answers his question. But he only invaded (Crimea) because of the coup. He thinks NATO should understand that

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1115 on: July 30, 2023, 02:27:49 PM »
Why is the US condemning the coup in Niger when it  accepted the one in Ukraine?

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1116 on: July 30, 2023, 02:54:46 PM »
Why is the US condemning the coup in Niger when it  accepted the one in Ukraine?

Because they don't consider the events in Ukraine to have been a coup I guess.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1117 on: July 30, 2023, 03:24:49 PM »
Because they don't consider the events in Ukraine to have been a coup I guess.

Indeed! It was a revolution.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1118 on: July 30, 2023, 05:37:03 PM »
Because they don't consider the events in Ukraine to have been a coup I guess.
Would you agree that whatever it was, it backfired somewhat, in that it initiated a conflict that meant Ukraine was not eligible for NATO membership.

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1119 on: July 30, 2023, 06:42:36 PM »
Would you agree that whatever it was, it backfired somewhat, in that it initiated a conflict that meant Ukraine was not eligible for NATO membership.

Did it initiate the conflict?

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1120 on: July 31, 2023, 04:25:21 AM »
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1121 on: July 31, 2023, 09:14:13 AM »
Jeremy, you said in a post, which I can't find, that Ukraine tried neutrality but that it didn't work for them. Putin recently said in a meeting with African leaders concerning peace proposals, that "Kiev obtained its independence during the dissolution of the Soviet Union, based on the declaration of independence, and this declaration states clearly that Ukraine is a neutral state. This is of principle importance to us; it is not quite clear for us, why the West started pulling Ukraine into NATO", adding that, in Moscow's opinion, this is what poses a fundamental threat to Russia's interests.

What is a threat to Russian interests, currently, is the lack of a defensible land border. Putin, and the Russian military, remain publicly committed to the idea that 'the West' has eyes on invading - whether that's a genuine (but ridiculous) belief or just posturing isn't clear. Therefore his policy, as has been Russian policy on and off for at least a century, is to create a buffer zone around 'Mother Russia' by subjugating or occupying neighbouring territories to create a more defensible barrier.

Ukraine, recognising this, looked for options to defend itself, and NATO was the obvious partner to move towards. NATO isn't pulling, Russia is pushing and has been for some time.

O.
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1122 on: July 31, 2023, 10:05:58 AM »
He said "it is not quite clear for us, why the West started pulling Ukraine into NATO".
It should have been obvious: NATO is pulling Ukraine in because Russia invaded. Is he some kind of idiot?

Quote
That isn't a lie. Your statement, "because Russia invaded" answers his question. But he only invaded (Crimea) because of the coup. He thinks NATO should understand that

In 2014, NATO was not "pulling Ukraine in". Nor was it in 2022 until Russia invaded.

Putin is lying. He is a liar.
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1123 on: July 31, 2023, 10:07:40 AM »
Why is the US condemning the coup in Niger when it  accepted the one in Ukraine?

There was no coup in Ukraine. There was an invasion by a foreign power.
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1124 on: July 31, 2023, 10:22:34 AM »
Why is the US condemning the coup in Niger when it  accepted the one in Ukraine?

What coup in Ukraine are you referring to? Are you referring to the Maidan Uprising/Revolution of Dignity when the duly-elected regime reneged on its campaign promises as a result of Russian pressure and bribery, and prompted a popular revolt to throw them out and RUN FURTHER DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS as the Russians invaded the country? That's not a coup, even in Russian.

O.
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