Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 109751 times)

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1150 on: August 02, 2023, 10:42:39 AM »
I get that the argument for the invasion based on Crimea being used to attack Russia doesn't hold up.

Anyone like to acknowledge the illegal shelling of civilians in DPR?

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1151 on: August 02, 2023, 10:48:37 AM »
I get that the argument for the invasion based on Crimea being used to attack Russia doesn't hold up.

Anyone like to acknowledge the illegal shelling of civilians in DPR?

No. Ukraine isn't shelling civilians deliberately, it is shelling Russian soldiers who are there illegally. If the Russian soldiers went away, the shelling would stop.

And by the way, TASS is a Russian organisation run by the state. You really shouldn't be taking them at their word.
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1152 on: August 02, 2023, 10:51:47 AM »
"The idea that they'd sponsor a terrorist attack in London is far from radical."
Zelensky was implying bombing like that of WWII, Outrider.

A state-sponsored terrorist attack is more likely, but to put Zelensky's commentary into perspective:

Russian Embassy in London's statement following President Zelendky's visit: ""We would like to remind London: in the event of such a scenario, the death toll of yet another round of escalation, as well as its military-political consequences for the European continent and the whole world will be on the United Kingdom's hands. Russia will know how to respond to any unfriendly actions by the British side," (https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-russia-attacks-pompous-zelenskyy-and-warns-uk-as-president-asks-for-more-weapons-12806529)

Russian State propoganda TV show: "London will be turned to dust!" (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11762227/London-turned-dust-Putins-TV-propagandist-rants-Ukraine-using-British-missiles.html)

Whilst this is probably hyperbole - even Putin doesn't appear to be so deranged as to launch an overt strike at one of the central NATO partners at the moment - if the Russians are at liberty to make exaggerated threats to try to coerce public opinion in foreign states, why shouldn't Zelensky turn those claims to the benefit of his own nation?

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Anyone like to acknowledge the illegal shelling of civilians in DPR?

The deliberate and indiscriminate targetting of the civilian population is prohibited - you know, like when Russians blow up schools, hospitals and tower blocks in a major city hundreds of miles from the warzone. This is one of the reasons why it's also prohibited for invading forces to hide their troops and equipment in major civilians centres in an attempt to use the local populace as human shields - you know, like Russia has done from day one of both of these illegal occupations.

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Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1153 on: August 02, 2023, 07:58:25 PM »
I didn't see this yesterday, sorry. Yes, but I think the context of Steven Myers' use of the word 'conquest' clarifies that it doesn't mean invading other countries than Ukraine. Russia's strategy is inconsistent with this, but I've seen British news articles in which Zelensky claims Russia could start bombing London if they aren't stopped in Ukraine. So it's ok for him to exaggerate but Russia isn't allowed to want security guarantees?

What the invasion was preemptive of seems to have been the US eventually having the capability of launching nukes at Moscow that would reach it within a minute. If the US navy had access to Crimea this is closer than Cuba is to Washington. It seems Russia needs control over the black sea in order to prevent this - not so much as for access to the Mediterranean.

As well as this, the news website Tass reports daily on the shelling of residential areas well being the line of engagement in DPR. It says that since Feb last year, 4600 civilians have been killed and 4900 wounded by AFU shelling.

https://tass.com/society/1654987

I wouldn't believe Tass.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1154 on: August 04, 2023, 06:54:03 PM »
IAEA finds no explosives on roofs of Zaporozhye NPP units

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1155 on: August 08, 2023, 01:39:53 PM »
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1156 on: August 08, 2023, 01:47:06 PM »
IAEA finds no explosives on roofs of Zaporozhye NPP units

But anti-personnel mines were found in the plant though and not for the first time

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/new-iaea-complaint-about-anti-personnel-mines-russian-held-nuclear-plant-2023-07-24/
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1157 on: August 10, 2023, 11:31:25 AM »
What ruble doing?

Everything's fine! Nothing to see!🤭
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1158 on: August 10, 2023, 12:06:36 PM »
What ruble doing?

Everything's fine! Nothing to see!🤭

It doesn't really matter when the EU won't sell you anything or buy anything off you.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1159 on: August 10, 2023, 10:43:48 PM »
It doesn't really matter when the EU won't sell you anything or buy anything off you.

Sanctions are working.
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Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1160 on: August 14, 2023, 04:15:52 PM »
What's going on in the skies at the moment? Why would there be Russian bombers North of Scotland for example?

Edit: watched this from Sky which probably answers my question.

https://news.sky.com/video/raf-typhoon-jets-intercepted-russian-bombers-flying-north-of-scotland-12940003
« Last Edit: August 14, 2023, 05:00:08 PM by Maeght »

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1161 on: August 17, 2023, 05:58:37 PM »
But anti-personnel mines were found in the plant though and not for the first time

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/new-iaea-complaint-about-anti-personnel-mines-russian-held-nuclear-plant-2023-07-24/
Those are to defend the site against attack. They claimed the Russians were going to create a nuclear disaster - this looks like an attempt to get NATO more involved in the war, given the timing just before the summit. I'm making this point because you and the others were saying how we can't trust Tass, etc.

Well, from the above it appears we can't trust Kiev either.  And if Tass and others say Ukraine has been targeting civilians regularly, we cannot dismiss this.

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1162 on: August 17, 2023, 06:05:23 PM »
If Tass and others say Ukraine has been targeting civilians regularly, we cannot dismiss this.

Yes we can because they are lying Russian liars.

No civilians would be dying anywhere in Ukraine if Russia had kept to its side of the border.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1163 on: August 18, 2023, 09:44:20 AM »
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Come on, you live in a NATO country. was there ever any realistic chance that NATO would invade Russia? NATO was set up as a defensive pact. There is no danger of NATO launching an invasion of Russia. So why is Putin nervous about NATO forces close to his border?
A possible reason is because there are Russians living in Ukraine, and Russia wouldn't be able to defend them in the event of Ukrainian aggression (which we saw in 2014 imo) without triggering ww3, if Ukraine were part of NATO.

Yes we can because they are lying Russian liars.
Does Ukraine publish videos of destroyed military targets in these civilian areas, like they do on or near the front line?

1,000 Ukrainian casualties on the front line yesterday.  Surely it's time for this to stop?
« Last Edit: August 18, 2023, 09:49:19 AM by Spud »

Sebastian Toe

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1164 on: August 18, 2023, 09:51:57 AM »


1,000 Ukrainian casualties on the front line yesterday.  Surely it's time for this to stop?
The simplest way for it to stop is for the invaders to withdraw back to their own borders
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1165 on: August 18, 2023, 09:55:48 AM »
A possible reason is because there are Russians living in Ukraine, and Russia wouldn't be able to defend them in the event of Ukrainian aggression (which we saw in 2014 imo) without triggering ww3, if Ukraine were part of NATO.

There are Britons living in Niger. I don't know if you missed it, but we didn't INVADE NIGER, we simply recommended that they consider leaving the area.

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1,000 Ukrainian casualties on the front line yesterday.  Surely it's time for this to stop?

Absolutely it's time. Just let me know when Vlad's withdrawing from the illegally occupied territories, because unless that happens the Ukrainian military surrendering isn't going to prevent the deaths of Ukrainian people at Russian hands, it's not going to stop children being removed from the country of their birth to be indoctrinated and held hostage. Ukraine is RESPONDING here - you want this to stop, the aggressor has to stop, and that's Russia.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1166 on: August 18, 2023, 10:11:52 AM »
There are Britons living in Niger. I don't know if you missed it, but we didn't INVADE NIGER, we simply recommended that they consider leaving the area.

There are about 100 Britons living in Niger, a neutral country. There are around 11 million Russians living in Ukraine.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1167 on: August 18, 2023, 10:22:24 AM »
Absolutely it's time. Just let me know when Vlad's withdrawing from the illegally occupied territories, because unless that happens the Ukrainian military surrendering isn't going to prevent the deaths of Ukrainian people at Russian hands, it's not going to stop children being removed from the country of their birth to be indoctrinated and held hostage. Ukraine is RESPONDING here - you want this to stop, the aggressor has to stop, and that's Russia.
Ukraine was the original aggressor. Turchinov sent the military into Donbass even though the separatists were not not killing people, but firmly refusing to submit to the new government.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2023, 03:13:23 PM by Spud »

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1168 on: August 18, 2023, 10:25:13 AM »
Ukraine was the original aggressor.

Nonsense.

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Poroschenko sent the military into Donbass even though the separatists were not not killing people, but firmly refusing to submit to the new government.

Firstly, Russia had already been sending troops and equipment into Donbass at that point. Secondly, even if there were separatists, that's still AN INTERNAL UKRAINIAN MATTER. Thirdly, in what way does that justify Russia occupying Crimea and continuing to send troops further into Ukraine?

Utter, utter, revisionist bullshit.

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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1169 on: August 18, 2023, 02:36:32 PM »
Ukraine was the original aggressor. Kurchinov sent the military into Donbass even though the separatists were not not killing people, but firmly refusing to submit to the new government.

This is bollocks and you know it. Russia was sending troops, "little green men", from the beginning. That there are Russian speakers, also Russians (not the same thing btw), is the result of centuries of russification, forced deportations and genocide. Every invader deserves to fucking die. They leave or die. Fuck em, every last one.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2023, 02:40:41 PM by ad_orientem »
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1170 on: August 18, 2023, 02:57:26 PM »
Nonsense.

Firstly, Russia had already been sending troops and equipment into Donbass at that point. Secondly, even if there were separatists, that's still AN INTERNAL UKRAINIAN MATTER. Thirdly, in what way does that justify Russia occupying Crimea and continuing to send troops further into Ukraine?

Utter, utter, revisionist bullshit.

O.
Sorry, I meant Turchynov. I've looked at the wiki article on the timeline, which says that the separatists initially took control of an armoury of the SBU.
Secondly, if it was an internal affair, what are we doing sending weapons? At least Russia was supporting Russians. We aren't supporting Brits.
Your third point: we could say that Russia is responding, to use your word, to the prospect of 11 million Russians in Donbas and Crimea becoming part of an alliance that it is not itself part of. It's also interesting that Crimea was illegally transferred to Ukraine in 1954, according to an inquiry in 2015.

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1171 on: August 18, 2023, 03:15:36 PM »
Sorry, I meant Turchynov. I've looked at the wiki article on the timeline, which says that the separatists initially took control of an armoury of the SBU.

An internal issue that doesn't warrant a foreign nation invading.

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Secondly, if it was an internal affair, what are we doing sending weapons?

We weren't until, in case you missed it, RUSSIA INVADED A FOREIGN COUNTRY. Invading a foreign country changes it from a domestic issue to an international one.

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At least Russia was supporting Russians.

If they were Russians, why were they trying to foment a revolt in Ukraine? If they don't like Ukraine, they should fuck off back to Russia. If they're Ukrainians (Russian-speaking or otherwise) then it's an internal Ukrainian matter. Either way, the appropriate response is not to send in Russian troops to a foreign country.

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We aren't supporting Brits.

We are defending a neighbour and an ally who has been invaded. In the long-term, to a degree, we are arguably keeping an expansionist and militaristic Russia from NATO's borders - a conflict there would oblige us to commit troops, so tangentially we ARE preventing British deaths, but the primary motivation is to assist a beleaguered ally.

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Your third point: we could say that Russia is responding, to use your word, to the prospect of 11 million Russians in Donbas and Crimea becoming part of an alliance that it is not itself part of.

You and Vladimir both need to decide whether you think these people are Russian or Ukrainian. If they're Russians and they don't like Ukraine they don't have to stay there. If they're Ukrainians then it's none of Russia's business.

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It's also interesting that Crimea was illegally transferred to Ukraine in 1954, according to an inquiry in 2015.

An inquiry by whom? That would have been the administrative action by the Soviet government when it was a single state. The territory of Ukraine as it stands at the moment is a result of the agreements made at the dissolution of the USSR, long after those events. Whether that was an 'illegal transfer' or not at that time isn't really relevant to the current situation. Calais was taken by force from England in 1558, I can't see that standing as a basis for sending in the tanks.

Even if any of those claims were slightly correct, the appropriate action is not to invade; it's to seek to impose sanctions, it's to call for supervised elections and negotiated separation. If Putin's worried about Ukraine moving towards NATO or the EU, forcing Ukraine to hold independence referenda or show themselves as not as democratically accountable as the EU would require is a better way of achieving that goal than military invasion.

You keep trying to come with these weaselly attempts at something that might, with a squint, look like a technically valid justification for military action if you didn't look too long at it with any eyes that actually worked. If these were actual reasons they would have been made clear either before the first invasion or before the second invasion, but they weren't. This is just a land-grab by a militaristic authoritarian who is losing power at home and needs a foreign war to stoke political fear and new resources to top up a failing economy.

You need to take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself why you're so adamantly supporting such a blatantly corrupt regime's undeniably unjustifiable invasion of a neighbour. It doesn't speak well of you.

O.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1172 on: August 20, 2023, 03:13:44 PM »
An internal issue that doesn't warrant a foreign nation invading.

We weren't until, in case you missed it, RUSSIA INVADED A FOREIGN COUNTRY. Invading a foreign country changes it from a domestic issue to an international one.

If they were Russians, why were they trying to foment a revolt in Ukraine? If they don't like Ukraine, they should fuck off back to Russia. If they're Ukrainians (Russian-speaking or otherwise) then it's an internal Ukrainian matter. Either way, the appropriate response is not to send in Russian troops to a foreign country.

We are defending a neighbour and an ally who has been invaded. In the long-term, to a degree, we are arguably keeping an expansionist and militaristic Russia from NATO's borders - a conflict there would oblige us to commit troops, so tangentially we ARE preventing British deaths, but the primary motivation is to assist a beleaguered ally.

You and Vladimir both need to decide whether you think these people are Russian or Ukrainian. If they're Russians and they don't like Ukraine they don't have to stay there. If they're Ukrainians then it's none of Russia's business.

An inquiry by whom? That would have been the administrative action by the Soviet government when it was a single state. The territory of Ukraine as it stands at the moment is a result of the agreements made at the dissolution of the USSR, long after those events. Whether that was an 'illegal transfer' or not at that time isn't really relevant to the current situation. Calais was taken by force from England in 1558, I can't see that standing as a basis for sending in the tanks.

Even if any of those claims were slightly correct, the appropriate action is not to invade; it's to seek to impose sanctions, it's to call for supervised elections and negotiated separation. If Putin's worried about Ukraine moving towards NATO or the EU, forcing Ukraine to hold independence referenda or show themselves as not as democratically accountable as the EU would require is a better way of achieving that goal than military invasion.

You keep trying to come with these weaselly attempts at something that might, with a squint, look like a technically valid justification for military action if you didn't look too long at it with any eyes that actually worked. If these were actual reasons they would have been made clear either before the first invasion or before the second invasion, but they weren't. This is just a land-grab by a militaristic authoritarian who is losing power at home and needs a foreign war to stoke political fear and new resources to top up a failing economy.

You need to take a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself why you're so adamantly supporting such a blatantly corrupt regime's undeniably unjustifiable invasion of a neighbour. It doesn't speak well of you.

O.
I'll leave you and ad O to it, then, learn the hard way.

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1173 on: August 20, 2023, 04:26:59 PM »
There are about 100 Britons living in Niger, a neutral country. There are around 11 million Russians living in Ukraine.

No there aren't. That would be a quarter of the population.

There may be eleven million Russian speaking Ukrainians living in Ukraine, but they are not in any danger from Ukraine - only Russia. The president of Ukraine is one of them, by the way.
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1174 on: August 20, 2023, 04:27:35 PM »
Ukraine was the original aggressor.
That's a lie. Ukraine never attacked Russia.
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