Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 109728 times)

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5660
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1200 on: August 30, 2023, 07:31:55 AM »
RuSSia is on fire tonight. Big explosions in Pskov, explosions in Bryansk, explosions in Tula and Moscow airports closed. Burn ruSSia burn!

So is Ukraine sadly.

ad_orientem

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7902
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1201 on: August 30, 2023, 08:13:05 AM »
So is Ukraine sadly.

Indeed. Two waves I believe. All the more reason to bring the war to ordinary ruSSians.
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14502
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1202 on: August 30, 2023, 09:13:17 AM »
The data I saw said they were Ethnic Russians

Nationality based on ethnicity is the sort of white nationalist shit-housery that gets you Donald Trump as a president or Nick Griffin as an MP. In the modern world ethno-nationalism is long-dead, and rightfully so. There are no 'ethnic Russians', there are Russian citizens and there are citizens of other countries.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10191
  • God? She's black.
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1203 on: August 30, 2023, 09:53:00 AM »
In a plane crash! How convenient!
Correlation is not necessarily causation, as you regularly remind others.
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

SteveH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10191
  • God? She's black.
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1204 on: August 30, 2023, 09:57:26 AM »
Indeed. Two waves I believe. All the more reason to bring the war to ordinary ruSSians.
You bloodthirsty little sod!
When conspiracy nuts start spouting their bollocks, the best answer is "That's what they want you to think".

ad_orientem

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7902
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1205 on: August 30, 2023, 10:17:22 AM »
You bloodthirsty little sod!

Eh? I didn't say target them but bring it home to them. Let them see nearby airfields, factories, fuel tanks etc explode. Let them be scared. Why should they feel like they can lead ordinary lives while their army is committing genocide in another country? Fuck em! Let ruSSia burn! Let's see who's freezing next winter!
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32236
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1206 on: August 30, 2023, 10:26:10 AM »
I'm fairly convinced by the Tass reports
That by itself is a serious WTF. TASS is an arm of the Russian state and before that the USSR. 
Quote
of daily shelling of non-military targets by Ukraine. That makes them terrorists.

TASS is lying.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Dicky Underpants

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4344
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1207 on: August 30, 2023, 10:27:07 AM »
Correlation is not necessarily causation, as you regularly remind others.
No, but it's a pretty reasonable inference.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous.”

Le Bon David

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32236
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1208 on: August 30, 2023, 10:30:21 AM »
Correlation is not necessarily causation, as you regularly remind others.

£10 says the plane was brought down deliberately by Russia. Would you bet against it?
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32236
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1209 on: August 30, 2023, 10:34:45 AM »
Indeed. Two waves I believe. All the more reason to bring the war to ordinary ruSSians.

Whilst I understand you aren't calling for Russian civilians to be targeted (having read your subsequent posts), no bombing campaign in history that deliberately targeted civilians has caused the country to lose its resolve to fight, except for the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Ukraine targeting civilians would be a waste of ordnance as the Russian bombing of civilians is.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ad_orientem

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7902
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1210 on: August 30, 2023, 10:57:19 AM »
Whilst I understand you aren't calling for Russian civilians to be targeted (having read your subsequent posts), no bombing campaign in history that deliberately targeted civilians has caused the country to lose its resolve to fight, except for the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Ukraine targeting civilians would be a waste of ordnance as the Russian bombing of civilians is.

That's why the targets have to have value, like last night, a military airfield and a microchip factory.
Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32236
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1211 on: August 30, 2023, 10:58:39 AM »
That's why the targets have to have value, like last night, a military airfield and a microchip factory.

And also why Spud's claims of deliberate targeting of civilians by Ukraine are almost certainly complete BS.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Nearly Sane

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 63732
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1212 on: August 30, 2023, 11:23:43 AM »
Correlation is not necessarily causation, as you regularly remind others.
Apart from being a non sequitur, the last time you tried this you couldn't find one example of me doing that, never mind it bring a regular occurrence.


« Last Edit: August 30, 2023, 11:57:30 AM by Nearly Sane »

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7091
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1213 on: August 30, 2023, 12:28:24 PM »
Nationality based on ethnicity is the sort of white nationalist shit-housery that gets you Donald Trump as a president or Nick Griffin as an MP. In the modern world ethno-nationalism is long-dead, and rightfully so. There are no 'ethnic Russians', there are Russian citizens and there are citizens of other countries.

O.
Back to the point (why would Russia need to feel threatened by NATO on its borders). Why was it agreed (verbally, as part of US and UK diplomacy with Russia) in 1991 that NATO should not expand an inch eastwards after the reunification of Germany? There must have been an understanding that it would be inappropriate. Then there was the Cuban missile crisis that resulted from the US having nukes in Italy.

Harrowby Hall

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5037
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1214 on: August 30, 2023, 12:37:43 PM »
The data I saw said they were Ethnic Russians

So how does an "ethnic Russian" differ from an "ethnic Ukranian?"
« Last Edit: August 30, 2023, 05:45:09 PM by Harrowby Hall »
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32236
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1215 on: August 30, 2023, 12:47:59 PM »
why would Russia need to feel threatened by NATO on its borders.
Yes, why? I've lived in a NATO country all my life and never has there once been any hint that NATO would attempt to invade Russia - or the USSR as was.

All of these alleged threats were concocted by the USSR and Russia for internal consumption by its citizens.

Quote
Why was it agreed (verbally, as part of US and UK diplomacy with Russia) in 1991 that NATO should not expand an inch eastwards after the reunification of Germany? There must have been an understanding that it would be inappropriate.
Was it?

Things have changed since then. For a start, the state with which the US and UK negotiated no longer exists. And its successor has turned out to be a warmongering tyrannical expansionist gangster state.


Quote
Then there was the Cuban missile crisis that resulted from the US having nukes in Italy.
What's that got to do with anything?

This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14502
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1216 on: August 30, 2023, 01:42:52 PM »
Back to the point (why would Russia need to feel threatened by NATO on its borders). Why was it agreed (verbally, as part of US and UK diplomacy with Russia) in 1991 that NATO should not expand an inch eastwards after the reunification of Germany?

The alleged discussions were in 1990, and were with the USSR, which subsequently ceased to exist. Only a select few of the attendees, all on the Soviet/Russian side, appear to have  any recollection of those discussions reaching any agreeements, and even then the recollection was patchy at best. It was discussed, it appears, but it doesn't sound like any formal agreement was made, and it certainly didn't make it into the written agreements - why would the USSR have signed the agreements without that clause if it was both important and agreed. As it was, at that time, NATO was already at the the Ukrainian border with the USSR, so any agreement would have been relating to places like Finland and Sweden.

Regardless, any discussions would have been between NATO and a USSR which no longer exists, whereas this disagreement is between Ukraine and Russia. Long subsequent to those discussions Russia agreed to respect Ukraine's borders... look how that went.

Quote
There must have been an understanding that it would be inappropriate.

No, at the time there wouldn't even have been a sense in the USSR that Ukraine would ever exist as an independent nation, let alone that it might petition NATO for entry.

Quote
Then there was the Cuban missile crisis that resulted from the US having nukes in Italy.

That was certainly a significant element of it, yes. I'm failing to see how the cold war progression of land-based nuclear threats which have largely been replaced by ICBMs and submarine-launched systems is relevant to why Ukraine's sovereignty has been egregiously breached and whether it has the right to seek alliances to protect from a very apparent threat from an expansionist neighbour.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7091
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1217 on: August 31, 2023, 02:20:38 PM »
And also why Spud's claims of deliberate targeting of civilians by Ukraine are almost certainly complete BS.
https://youtu.be/2Z5JUaXbCzo?si=9SdZWrKwBC-H361V

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32236
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1218 on: August 31, 2023, 03:16:36 PM »
https://youtu.be/2Z5JUaXbCzo?si=9SdZWrKwBC-H361V

Who is this guy? Is he another Russian shill like yourself?

Are you aware that there are Russian soldiers invading this part of Ukraine and Ukraine wants to make them go away? This is a war zone. It doesn't mean civilians are being deliberately targeted.
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

ad_orientem

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7902
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1219 on: August 31, 2023, 04:09:40 PM »
Who is this guy? Is he another Russian shill like yourself?

Are you aware that there are Russian soldiers invading this part of Ukraine and Ukraine wants to make them go away? This is a war zone. It doesn't mean civilians are being deliberately targeted.

Patrick "The Vatnik" Lancaster, known for reporting staged "attrocities". He's a propaganda mouthpiece for the Luhansk and Donetsk banana republics.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/02/28/exploiting-cadavers-and-faked-ieds-experts-debunk-staged-pre-war-provocation-in-the-donbas/

Peace through superior firepower.
Do not believe anything until the Kremlin denies it.

jeremyp

  • Admin Support
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32236
  • Blurb
    • Sincere Flattery: A blog about computing
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1220 on: August 31, 2023, 05:35:12 PM »
Patrick "The Vatnik" Lancaster, known for reporting staged "attrocities". He's a propaganda mouthpiece for the Luhansk and Donetsk banana republics.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/02/28/exploiting-cadavers-and-faked-ieds-experts-debunk-staged-pre-war-provocation-in-the-donbas/

Why am I not surprised?
This post and all of JeremyP's posts words certified 100% divinely inspired* -- signed God.
*Platinum infallibility package, terms and conditions may apply

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7091
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1221 on: August 31, 2023, 07:57:52 PM »
Who is this guy? Is he another Russian shill like yourself?

Are you aware that there are Russian soldiers invading this part of Ukraine and Ukraine wants to make them go away? This is a war zone. It doesn't mean civilians are being deliberately targeted.
It's indiscriminate shelling of non-military, civilian areas, which has gone on since the Donbas declared independence. Patrick Lancaster has reported on many such incidents.
If you watch the video you'll see that the US -made HARM missile hit a high-rise block next to a school and football pitch in Donetsk city, where there was no military presence nearby. He also interviews kids in a hospital who were wounded recently in similar indiscriminate attacks.
If Ukraine was attacking military targets it would without doubt be posting footage of the attacks online, as it does when it hits a Russian tank or ammo depot.

Spud

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7091
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1222 on: August 31, 2023, 08:05:29 PM »
why would the USSR have signed the agreements without that clause if it was both important and agreed. As it was, at that time, NATO was already at the the Ukrainian border with the USSR
No it wasn't - the Warsaw Pact, neutral Austria/Yugoslavia, Finland and Sweden were between NATO and the USSR at the time of the negotiations over German reunification. That could be why no formal agreement preventing NATO expansion was considered necessary.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2023, 08:09:03 PM by Spud »

Maeght

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5660
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1223 on: August 31, 2023, 08:12:37 PM »
It's indiscriminate shelling of non-military, civilian areas, which has gone on since the Donbas declared independence. Patrick Lancaster has reported on many such incidents.
If you watch the video you'll see that the US -made HARM missile hit a high-rise block next to a school and football pitch in Donetsk city, where there was no military presence nearby. He also interviews kids in a hospital who were wounded recently in similar indiscriminate attacks.
If Ukraine was attacking military targets it would without doubt be posting footage of the attacks online, as it does when it hits a Russian tank or ammo depot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Lancaster

Outrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14502
Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1224 on: September 01, 2023, 09:28:50 AM »
No it wasn't - the Warsaw Pact, neutral Austria/Yugoslavia, Finland and Sweden were between NATO and the USSR at the time of the negotiations over German reunification. That could be why no formal agreement preventing NATO expansion was considered necessary.

I thought Poland had joined NATO prior to that, so fair enough, although there was always the Norway USSR border. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that only (and perhaps conveniently) some people on the Soviet side of the discussions have any recollection of an agreement on that topic (although the Norwegian and Dutch members recall it being discussed, they have opined that it was never a viable proposition so far as NATO was concerned).

And it certainly wasn't included in what was actually signed and agreed, so even if it had been 'agreed' at some point, it was subsequently dropped before the arrangements were finalised. And was regarding a state that no longer exists.

O.
Universes are forever, not just for creation...

New Atheism - because, apparently, there's a use-by date on unanswered questions.

Eminent Pedant, Interpreter of Heretical Writings, Unwarranted Harvester of Trite Nomenclature, Church of Debatable Saints