Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 118149 times)

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1200 on: August 30, 2023, 07:31:55 AM »
RuSSia is on fire tonight. Big explosions in Pskov, explosions in Bryansk, explosions in Tula and Moscow airports closed. Burn ruSSia burn!

So is Ukraine sadly.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1201 on: August 30, 2023, 08:13:05 AM »
So is Ukraine sadly.

Indeed. Two waves I believe. All the more reason to bring the war to ordinary ruSSians.
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1202 on: August 30, 2023, 09:13:17 AM »
The data I saw said they were Ethnic Russians

Nationality based on ethnicity is the sort of white nationalist shit-housery that gets you Donald Trump as a president or Nick Griffin as an MP. In the modern world ethno-nationalism is long-dead, and rightfully so. There are no 'ethnic Russians', there are Russian citizens and there are citizens of other countries.

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SteveH

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1203 on: August 30, 2023, 09:53:00 AM »
In a plane crash! How convenient!
Correlation is not necessarily causation, as you regularly remind others.
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SteveH

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1204 on: August 30, 2023, 09:57:26 AM »
Indeed. Two waves I believe. All the more reason to bring the war to ordinary ruSSians.
You bloodthirsty little sod!
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1205 on: August 30, 2023, 10:17:22 AM »
You bloodthirsty little sod!

Eh? I didn't say target them but bring it home to them. Let them see nearby airfields, factories, fuel tanks etc explode. Let them be scared. Why should they feel like they can lead ordinary lives while their army is committing genocide in another country? Fuck em! Let ruSSia burn! Let's see who's freezing next winter!
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1206 on: August 30, 2023, 10:26:10 AM »
I'm fairly convinced by the Tass reports
That by itself is a serious WTF. TASS is an arm of the Russian state and before that the USSR. 
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of daily shelling of non-military targets by Ukraine. That makes them terrorists.

TASS is lying.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1207 on: August 30, 2023, 10:27:07 AM »
Correlation is not necessarily causation, as you regularly remind others.
No, but it's a pretty reasonable inference.
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1208 on: August 30, 2023, 10:30:21 AM »
Correlation is not necessarily causation, as you regularly remind others.

£10 says the plane was brought down deliberately by Russia. Would you bet against it?
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1209 on: August 30, 2023, 10:34:45 AM »
Indeed. Two waves I believe. All the more reason to bring the war to ordinary ruSSians.

Whilst I understand you aren't calling for Russian civilians to be targeted (having read your subsequent posts), no bombing campaign in history that deliberately targeted civilians has caused the country to lose its resolve to fight, except for the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Ukraine targeting civilians would be a waste of ordnance as the Russian bombing of civilians is.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1210 on: August 30, 2023, 10:57:19 AM »
Whilst I understand you aren't calling for Russian civilians to be targeted (having read your subsequent posts), no bombing campaign in history that deliberately targeted civilians has caused the country to lose its resolve to fight, except for the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Ukraine targeting civilians would be a waste of ordnance as the Russian bombing of civilians is.

That's why the targets have to have value, like last night, a military airfield and a microchip factory.
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1211 on: August 30, 2023, 10:58:39 AM »
That's why the targets have to have value, like last night, a military airfield and a microchip factory.

And also why Spud's claims of deliberate targeting of civilians by Ukraine are almost certainly complete BS.
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1212 on: August 30, 2023, 11:23:43 AM »
Correlation is not necessarily causation, as you regularly remind others.
Apart from being a non sequitur, the last time you tried this you couldn't find one example of me doing that, never mind it bring a regular occurrence.


« Last Edit: August 30, 2023, 11:57:30 AM by Nearly Sane »

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1213 on: August 30, 2023, 12:28:24 PM »
Nationality based on ethnicity is the sort of white nationalist shit-housery that gets you Donald Trump as a president or Nick Griffin as an MP. In the modern world ethno-nationalism is long-dead, and rightfully so. There are no 'ethnic Russians', there are Russian citizens and there are citizens of other countries.

O.
Back to the point (why would Russia need to feel threatened by NATO on its borders). Why was it agreed (verbally, as part of US and UK diplomacy with Russia) in 1991 that NATO should not expand an inch eastwards after the reunification of Germany? There must have been an understanding that it would be inappropriate. Then there was the Cuban missile crisis that resulted from the US having nukes in Italy.

Harrowby Hall

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1214 on: August 30, 2023, 12:37:43 PM »
The data I saw said they were Ethnic Russians

So how does an "ethnic Russian" differ from an "ethnic Ukranian?"
« Last Edit: August 30, 2023, 05:45:09 PM by Harrowby Hall »
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1215 on: August 30, 2023, 12:47:59 PM »
why would Russia need to feel threatened by NATO on its borders.
Yes, why? I've lived in a NATO country all my life and never has there once been any hint that NATO would attempt to invade Russia - or the USSR as was.

All of these alleged threats were concocted by the USSR and Russia for internal consumption by its citizens.

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Why was it agreed (verbally, as part of US and UK diplomacy with Russia) in 1991 that NATO should not expand an inch eastwards after the reunification of Germany? There must have been an understanding that it would be inappropriate.
Was it?

Things have changed since then. For a start, the state with which the US and UK negotiated no longer exists. And its successor has turned out to be a warmongering tyrannical expansionist gangster state.


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Then there was the Cuban missile crisis that resulted from the US having nukes in Italy.
What's that got to do with anything?

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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1216 on: August 30, 2023, 01:42:52 PM »
Back to the point (why would Russia need to feel threatened by NATO on its borders). Why was it agreed (verbally, as part of US and UK diplomacy with Russia) in 1991 that NATO should not expand an inch eastwards after the reunification of Germany?

The alleged discussions were in 1990, and were with the USSR, which subsequently ceased to exist. Only a select few of the attendees, all on the Soviet/Russian side, appear to have  any recollection of those discussions reaching any agreeements, and even then the recollection was patchy at best. It was discussed, it appears, but it doesn't sound like any formal agreement was made, and it certainly didn't make it into the written agreements - why would the USSR have signed the agreements without that clause if it was both important and agreed. As it was, at that time, NATO was already at the the Ukrainian border with the USSR, so any agreement would have been relating to places like Finland and Sweden.

Regardless, any discussions would have been between NATO and a USSR which no longer exists, whereas this disagreement is between Ukraine and Russia. Long subsequent to those discussions Russia agreed to respect Ukraine's borders... look how that went.

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There must have been an understanding that it would be inappropriate.

No, at the time there wouldn't even have been a sense in the USSR that Ukraine would ever exist as an independent nation, let alone that it might petition NATO for entry.

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Then there was the Cuban missile crisis that resulted from the US having nukes in Italy.

That was certainly a significant element of it, yes. I'm failing to see how the cold war progression of land-based nuclear threats which have largely been replaced by ICBMs and submarine-launched systems is relevant to why Ukraine's sovereignty has been egregiously breached and whether it has the right to seek alliances to protect from a very apparent threat from an expansionist neighbour.

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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1217 on: August 31, 2023, 02:20:38 PM »
And also why Spud's claims of deliberate targeting of civilians by Ukraine are almost certainly complete BS.
https://youtu.be/2Z5JUaXbCzo?si=9SdZWrKwBC-H361V

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1218 on: August 31, 2023, 03:16:36 PM »
https://youtu.be/2Z5JUaXbCzo?si=9SdZWrKwBC-H361V

Who is this guy? Is he another Russian shill like yourself?

Are you aware that there are Russian soldiers invading this part of Ukraine and Ukraine wants to make them go away? This is a war zone. It doesn't mean civilians are being deliberately targeted.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1219 on: August 31, 2023, 04:09:40 PM »
Who is this guy? Is he another Russian shill like yourself?

Are you aware that there are Russian soldiers invading this part of Ukraine and Ukraine wants to make them go away? This is a war zone. It doesn't mean civilians are being deliberately targeted.

Patrick "The Vatnik" Lancaster, known for reporting staged "attrocities". He's a propaganda mouthpiece for the Luhansk and Donetsk banana republics.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/02/28/exploiting-cadavers-and-faked-ieds-experts-debunk-staged-pre-war-provocation-in-the-donbas/

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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1220 on: August 31, 2023, 05:35:12 PM »
Patrick "The Vatnik" Lancaster, known for reporting staged "attrocities". He's a propaganda mouthpiece for the Luhansk and Donetsk banana republics.

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/02/28/exploiting-cadavers-and-faked-ieds-experts-debunk-staged-pre-war-provocation-in-the-donbas/

Why am I not surprised?
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1221 on: August 31, 2023, 07:57:52 PM »
Who is this guy? Is he another Russian shill like yourself?

Are you aware that there are Russian soldiers invading this part of Ukraine and Ukraine wants to make them go away? This is a war zone. It doesn't mean civilians are being deliberately targeted.
It's indiscriminate shelling of non-military, civilian areas, which has gone on since the Donbas declared independence. Patrick Lancaster has reported on many such incidents.
If you watch the video you'll see that the US -made HARM missile hit a high-rise block next to a school and football pitch in Donetsk city, where there was no military presence nearby. He also interviews kids in a hospital who were wounded recently in similar indiscriminate attacks.
If Ukraine was attacking military targets it would without doubt be posting footage of the attacks online, as it does when it hits a Russian tank or ammo depot.

Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1222 on: August 31, 2023, 08:05:29 PM »
why would the USSR have signed the agreements without that clause if it was both important and agreed. As it was, at that time, NATO was already at the the Ukrainian border with the USSR
No it wasn't - the Warsaw Pact, neutral Austria/Yugoslavia, Finland and Sweden were between NATO and the USSR at the time of the negotiations over German reunification. That could be why no formal agreement preventing NATO expansion was considered necessary.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2023, 08:09:03 PM by Spud »

Maeght

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1223 on: August 31, 2023, 08:12:37 PM »
It's indiscriminate shelling of non-military, civilian areas, which has gone on since the Donbas declared independence. Patrick Lancaster has reported on many such incidents.
If you watch the video you'll see that the US -made HARM missile hit a high-rise block next to a school and football pitch in Donetsk city, where there was no military presence nearby. He also interviews kids in a hospital who were wounded recently in similar indiscriminate attacks.
If Ukraine was attacking military targets it would without doubt be posting footage of the attacks online, as it does when it hits a Russian tank or ammo depot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Lancaster

Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1224 on: September 01, 2023, 09:28:50 AM »
No it wasn't - the Warsaw Pact, neutral Austria/Yugoslavia, Finland and Sweden were between NATO and the USSR at the time of the negotiations over German reunification. That could be why no formal agreement preventing NATO expansion was considered necessary.

I thought Poland had joined NATO prior to that, so fair enough, although there was always the Norway USSR border. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that only (and perhaps conveniently) some people on the Soviet side of the discussions have any recollection of an agreement on that topic (although the Norwegian and Dutch members recall it being discussed, they have opined that it was never a viable proposition so far as NATO was concerned).

And it certainly wasn't included in what was actually signed and agreed, so even if it had been 'agreed' at some point, it was subsequently dropped before the arrangements were finalised. And was regarding a state that no longer exists.

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