Arming the Ukrainians

[jeremyp]

Top Russian general issues stark warning over Ukraine war ..... https://tinyurl.com/2xacbaxb

Sorry but that's hilarious.

A top Russian commander has admitted that the war in Ukraine is ‘a stepping stone’ for the rest of eastern Europe.

Who does he think he is kidding. Russia is barely holding on in Ukraine and they want to expand the front line?

[Spud]

It's too late to prevent escalation. There's a full scale war going on. It's escalated.

My actual words were: if we care about Ukraine, we should give it to Russia because otherwise they will annihilate it. This was a general statement meaning Ukraine should agree to Russia's terms. 

[Spud]

Encouraging Ukraine to Surrender further land to Russia will just encourage Putin, and other expansionist aggressors, to invade other places.

I would suggest that rather than imperialism, this is more to do with matching NATO's strength, as was the intention when the Warsaw Pact was made. Reading the history it seems to have started as a result of the tension between communism and capitalism. Would you agree?

[ad_orientem]

I would suggest that rather than imperialism, this is more to do with matching NATO's strength, as was the intention when the Warsaw Pact was made. Reading the history it seems to have started as a result of the tension between communism and capitalism. Would you agree?

No. It's plain imperialism. That's why Putin keeps on referring to Peter and Catherine. Russia is an empire and that's why, if we're going to finally destroy Russian imperialism, Russia also needs to be destroyed. It's not something they'll just give up, it needs to be surgically removed.

[jeremyp]

My actual words were: if we care about Ukraine, we should give it to Russia because otherwise they will annihilate it. This was a general statement meaning Ukraine should agree to Russia's terms.

FFS Spud, your actual words are written down for us all to see. They are "it would be better to stick to a policy of non-escalation because if they try to take back the land they lost, they will be slaughtered."

And no, if we care about Ukraine we will help them fight. If Ukraine loses, the genocide inflicted by Putin and his gangster thugs will make the Holocaust look small scale.

[ad_orientem]

My actual words were: if we care about Ukraine, we should give it to Russia because otherwise they will annihilate it. This was a general statement meaning Ukraine should agree to Russia's terms.

That's not peace. You're not in favour of peace. All you want is for Russia to be able to commit genocide in peace.

[jeremyp]

Article from the Daily Kos on various things happening in the war at the moment.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/9/15/2193491/-Ukraine-Update-Everything-we-learn-about-Elon-Musk-s-actions-makes-thing-worse

The bit about Elon Musk makes for very interesting reading. He's even more scummy than I thought.

[ad_orientem]

Article from the Daily Kos on various things happening in the war at the moment.

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2023/9/15/2193491/-Ukraine-Update-Everything-we-learn-about-Elon-Musk-s-actions-makes-thing-worse

The bit about Elon Musk makes for very interesting reading. He's even more scummy than I thought.

He's a liar and a narcissist. He plays the aspergers card, but aspergers doesn't make people into arseholes.

[ad_orientem]

Another potential case study for the extraordinary correlation between Russia apologists and sex offenders.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russell-brand-rape-sexual-assault-abuse-allegations-investigation-v5hxdlmb6?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1694876330

Z nazis are usually rapists and nonces.

[jeremyp]

Another potential case study for the extraordinary correlation between Russia apologists and sex offenders.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/russell-brand-rape-sexual-assault-abuse-allegations-investigation-v5hxdlmb6?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1694876330

Z nazis are usually rapists and nonces.

1. I didn't know Russell Brand was a Russia apologist or a Z nazi

2. It's not proven that he is a rapist. All we have so far is accusations.

3. I doubt the statement "Z nazis are usually rapists and nonces". There may be more rapists and nonces among them than the general population, but you are claiming the vast majority. I'd like to see evidence for that.

I'd suggest Russell Brand is off topic for this thread.

[ad_orientem]

Rumours that the traitor of the Chechen people, Kadyrov, is dead.

https://twitter.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1703365268695564343?s=19

[ad_orientem]

Rumours that the traitor of the Chechen people, Kadyrov, is dead.

https://twitter.com/Maks_NAFO_FELLA/status/1703365268695564343?s=19

https://twitter.com/BadBalticTakes/status/1703386425314419010?s=19

[Spud]

FFS Spud, your actual words are written down for us all to see. They are "it would be better to stick to a policy of non-escalation because if they try to take back the land they lost, they will be slaughtered."

And no, if we care about Ukraine we will help them fight. If Ukraine loses, the genocide inflicted by Putin and his gangster thugs will make the Holocaust look small scale.

Do keep up. I am quoting what I wrote to my MP. And it is coming true. Russia is slaughtering them, because they are fighting back. If they don't fight back, they will live.

[Spud]

No. It's plain imperialism. That's why Putin keeps on referring to Peter and Catherine. Russia is an empire and that's why, if we're going to finally destroy Russian imperialism, Russia also needs to be destroyed. It's not something they'll just give up, it needs to be surgically removed.

This attitude is escalating the conflict. You have to take into account how this comes across from Russia's viewpoint. They see the West trying to blockade Russia, with Poland and the Baltic states, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey; Ukraine and Georgia in NATO's sights; why else would the Russians annex Crimea in 2014? Crimea is the point at which Russia is cornered if it becomes part of NATO.

[ad_orientem]

This attitude is escalating the conflict. You have to take into account how this comes across from Russia's viewpoint. They see the West trying to blockade Russia, with Poland and the Baltic states, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey; Ukraine and Georgia in NATO's sights; why else would the Russians annex Crimea in 2014? Crimea is the point at which Russia is cornered if it becomes part of NATO.

Fuck what Russia thinks.

[ad_orientem]

Do keep up. I am quoting what I wrote to my MP. And it is coming true. Russia is slaughtering them, because they are fighting back. If they don't fight back, they will live.

If Ukraine stops fighting, Russia will genocide them. That's what Russia does. That's Russia's entire history.

[ad_orientem]

Here's a brief glimpse of the harsh reality many Ukrainians face in Russian occupied areas. Spud, will you defend this?

https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1690273379951988736?s=19

[Outrider]

I would suggest that rather than imperialism, this is more to do with matching NATO's strength, as was the intention when the Warsaw Pact was made.

The Warsaw Pact which totally wasn't about Imperialism, but ignore the tanks rolling through Prague and martial law implemented in Poland when the people got uppity.

Reading the history it seems to have started as a result of the tension between communism and capitalism. Would you agree?

I think it was tension between the US and Russia, in which they both demonised each other's political stances, but their motivations were both power and influence rather than ideology.

Much like Putin's bullshit about 'ethnic Russian oppression' and 'deNazification' when it's a blatant land-grab for financial and trade purposes, securing Crimea and Black Sea ports.

This attitude is escalating the conflict.

The conflict hasn't escalated since Russia invaded (the second time). It's been open warfare, with indiscriminate targetting of civilian centres by Russian forces, since that time. That was the escalation.

You have to take into account how this comes across from Russia's viewpoint.

There are many Russian viewpoints, some of them are in prison because they state their anti-invasion viewpoints. Ukraine is far more united in its consideration that Russians should go back to Russia and leave their country alone - I'm not saying that there are no Ukrainians who would object to a surrender, but I think as a proportion of the populace they are probably far rarer than Russians who'd approve of a unilateral withdrawal.

They see the West trying to blockade Russia, with Poland and the Baltic states, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey; Ukraine and Georgia in NATO's sights; why else would the Russians annex Crimea in 2014?

Because they want to control the Black Sea. Yes, they see 'threats', but that's because it seems to be written into the Russian viewpoint that anything they don't actively control is a threat.

Crimea is the point at which Russia is cornered if it becomes part of NATO.

Crimea is none of Russia's business, it's part of Ukraine. Russia needs to accept that it can't dictate terms to the rest of Eastern Europe - indeed, if it had worked that out and had worked with people, they wouldn't have felt the need to court NATO for protection.

O.

[Spud]

The Warsaw Pact which totally wasn't about Imperialism, but ignore the tanks rolling through Prague and martial law implemented in Poland when the people got uppity.

The Warsaw pact was formed as a result of West Germany rearming within NATO, according to Wikipedia.

[Outrider]

The Warsaw pact was formed as a result of West Germany rearming within NATO, according to Wikipedia.

The Warsaw Pact was formed as part of the cold war; the re-arming of Germany was one of the immediate events, but it had been coming. What the specific 'spark' was doesn't change the Imperialist nature of it.

O.

[ad_orientem]

The Warsaw pact was formed as a result of West Germany rearming within NATO, according to Wikipedia.

Remember, Russia always plays the victim. It acts as an aggressor, then plays the victim. Along with lying and genocide, it's part of its MO.

[Spud]

The Warsaw Pact was formed as part of the cold war; the re-arming of Germany was one of the immediate events, but it had been coming. What the specific 'spark' was doesn't change the Imperialist nature of it.

O.

I thought the initial pact was between East Germany, Czechoslovakia and Poland? They feared a rearmed West Germany, and so did the Soviets. I don't see evidence for imperialism there. It was a balance of power issue, with a potentially hostile state involved (West Germany) - much like the case with Ukraine since Yanukovich was ousted.

[Spud]

Also, Putin's actions before the war are evidence against imperialism: agreement that Donbas would be independent, his security proposal to the US in December 2021.

[jeremyp]

I thought the initial pact was between East Germany, Czechoslovakia and Poland? They feared a rearmed West Germany, and so did the Soviets.

No they didn't. At least their leaders didn't because West Germany was never going to get aggressive. In 1955, they might have had a legitimate reason to fear the USA though.

I don't see evidence for imperialism there. It was a balance of power issue, with a potentially hostile state involved (West Germany) - much like the case with Ukraine since Yanukovich was ousted.

Ukraine was never a threat to Russia.

I think you'll find that Yanukovich abandoned his post following opposition to his draconian anti-protest laws that resulted in a number of deaths. He wasn't ousted, he fled.

[jeremyp]

Also, Putin's actions before the war are evidence against imperialism: agreement that Donbas would be independent, his security proposal to the US in December 2021.

Putin had no right to "agree" that part of another sovereign state should be independent. He was poking his nose in matters that did not concern him. Why? Because of his imperialist ambitions.