Arming the Ukrainians

[SteveH]

Just suppose that Ukraine surrendered today and the war ended with Russia annexing the whole country: would that be so terrible? Daily life in Ukraine would continue without the danger of being blown to bits. It's not as if Russia is Nazi Germany - they're not going to start arresting and murdering Jews, or any other racial or ethnic or religious group It would be a severe blow to Ukrainian pride, but it would be recoverable from.

[Nearly Sane]

Just suppose that Ukraine surrendered today and the war ended with Russia annexing the whole country: would that be so terrible? Daily life in Ukraine would continue without the danger of being blown to bits. It's not as if Russia is Nazi Germany - they're not going to start arresting and murdering Jews, or any other racial or ethnic or religious group It would be a severe blow to Ukrainian pride, but it would be recoverable from.

So it's ok to let another country be annexed if the invaders are not as bad as the Nazis?

How do think that might make Taiwan feel just now?

Would you apply the same logic to Palestine

[jeremyp]

Today, I am pointing out that Russia not invading would have had the same result

No it wouldn't. It would be even better

[jeremyp]

Just suppose that Ukraine surrendered today and the war ended with Russia annexing the whole country: would that be so terrible?

Yes.

Daily life in Ukraine would continue without the danger of being blown to bits.

No. Children will be shipped back to Russia for "reeducation". Adults who don't toe the Russia line would be murdered, or tortured and murdered. Ukraine would be genocided.

It's not as if Russia is Nazi Germany

Russia is not identical to Nazi Germany but shares many of the same traits.

they're not going to start arresting and murdering Jews, or any other racial or ethnic or religious group

You're kidding right? They were doing those things before the Ukraine war. They'll carry on doing them afterwards.

It would be a severe blow to Ukrainian pride, but it would be recoverable from.

There would be no Ukraine.

[SteveH]

So it's ok to let another country be annexed if the invaders are not as bad as the Nazis?
Would you apply the same logic to Palestine

No, it isn't ok, but is it worth going to war over?
Palestine is not a comparable situation. However, if Israel annexed the whole of the occupied territories, but allowed the Palestinian refugees back into the country, and stopped treating the Palestinians as second-class citizens and gave everyone equal rights of immigration, I would not think that worth fighting.

[jeremyp]

No, it isn't ok, but is it worth going to war over?
Palestine is not a comparable situation. However, if Israel annexed the whole of the occupied territories, but allowed the Palestinian refugees back into the country, and stopped treating the Palestinians as second-class citizens and gave everyone equal rights of immigration, I would not think that worth fighting.

You're right. Palestine is not comparable. Why are you bringing it up?

[SteveH]

You're right. Palestine is not comparable. Why are you bringing it up?

Because NS did.

[Nearly Sane]

No, it isn't ok, but is it worth going to war over?
Palestine is not a comparable situation. However, if Israel annexed the whole of the occupied territories, but allowed the Palestinian refugees back into the country, and stopped treating the Palestinians as second-class citizens and gave everyone equal rights of immigration, I would not think that worth fighting.

No complex situation is exactly comparable. That doesn't mean that there are no similarities. Russia is much more anti democratic than Israel - see its policies as regarding gay rights - but you seem to think Russia, despite invading another country, is just going to be fine running it.

Any thoughts on Taiwan?

[Spud]

Today, I am pointing out that Russia not invading would have had the same result

Actually there may have been genocide of Donbas Ukrainians, because Donbas and Crimea didn't accept the new post-US-orchestrated-coup government since 2014. Ukraine was always planning to retake these territories, which led them to ask Russia for help in 2022, because they had de-mobilized and feared genocide when the AFU took over. That was on record from the Donetsk People's Republic until YouTube took down Scott Ritter's interview last year with a DPR military commander.

[Nearly Sane]

You're right. Palestine is not comparable. Why are you bringing it up?

He didn't. I did. See my answer to him on it.

[jeremyp]

Because NS did.

Fair enough. I withdraw my remark.

But do you understand that the very existence of Ukraine is under threat here?

[Spud]

So it's ok to let another country be annexed if the invaders are not as bad as the Nazis?

How do think that might make Taiwan feel just now?

Would you apply the same logic to Palestine

They wouldn't have annexed it if they had agreed to Russia's terms from the start.

[jeremyp]

Actually there may have been genocide of Donbas Ukrainians,

That may well be true. Ukraine has found a lot of evidence of Russian atrocities in the areas they have managed to retake.

because Donbas and Crimea didn't accept the new post-US-orchestrated-coup government since 2014.

The democratically elected government, you mean.

Ukraine was always planning to retake these territories,

Yes, because Russian soldiers pretending to be revolutionaries had taken control. Don't forget that all these regions voted for independence from Russia.

which led them to ask Russia for help in 2022, because they had de-mobilized and feared genocide when the AFU took over. That was on record from the Donetsk People's Republic until YouTube took down Scott Ritter's interview last year with a DPR military commander.

Scott Ritter is a lying sack of shit.

[SteveH]

Do you understand that the very existence of Ukraine is under threat here?

Yes, but the territory and its inhabitants would continue to exist, just under a different regime.

[jeremyp]

Yes, but the territory and its inhabitants would continue to exist, just under a different regime.

No that is what you are failing to get. It wouldn't be the same people under a different regime. Russia will genocide Ukraine. Even if they didn't, Ukraine is a democracy at the moment and Russia is a dictatorship. You're arguing against people having the right to fight for their freedom.

[Outrider]

The other day Scott Ritter pointed out that Kherson and Zaporizhia would still be under Ukrainian control, and half a million Ukrainians would still be alive, had Ukraine conceded autonomy for the Donbas and ruled out joining NATO last March.

So if they'd given up and sacrificed some of their people and their territory to the hostile invader, it would be over, so it's their fault. Victim blaming doesn't work at any level. If Putin hadn't invaded there wouldn't be shelling either, and Ukraine failing to surrender didn't cause the invasion.

Of course, presuming they did surrender, we can all be confident that Putin would respect the agreement and hold to the new borders this time, because he doesn't in any way have a track history of reneging on those sorts of agreements.

O.

[Spud]

The democratically elected government, you mean

The new 2014 one wasn't, hence the civil war. The 2018 one was elected on the basis that the Minsk Agreement would be implemented.

[SteveH]

No that is what you are failing to get. It wouldn't be the same people under a different regime. Russia will genocide Ukraine. Even if they didn't, Ukraine is a democracy at the moment and Russia is a dictatorship. You're arguing against people having the right to fight for their freedom.

Russia is a very flawed democracy, not a dictatorship. Putin has to face the electorate on a regular basis. I'm not arguing against the right to fight for freedom, just asking if it's worth the huge cost in lives. How do you know that "Russia will genocide Ukraine"?

[jeremyp]

The new 2014 one wasn't, hence the civil war.

What civil war?

[Nearly Sane]

They wouldn't have annexed it if they had agreed to Russia's terms from the start.

So anyone can threaten to take over another country, and you think the other country should agree.

[SteveH]

So anyone can threaten to take over another country, and you think the other country should agree.

He didn't say or imply that.

[Nearly Sane]

He didn't say or imply that.

Disagree. That seems the direct implication of suggesting that the Russian terms should have been accepted because of the what Russia would then do.

[ad_orientem]

Just suppose that Ukraine surrendered today and the war ended with Russia annexing the whole country: would that be so terrible? Daily life in Ukraine would continue without the danger of being blown to bits. It's not as if Russia is Nazi Germany - they're not going to start arresting and murdering Jews, or any other racial or ethnic or religious group It would be a severe blow to Ukrainian pride, but it would be recoverable from.

Would it be so bad? Yes, it would, from what we know from the occupied territories. Look at Russian state media as well, where you will constantly hear how Ukraine should not exist and that Ukrainians are just Russians in denial. The same peoole that watch that are also looting, raping, torturing and murdering Ukrainians. They are just as bad as the Nazis. They are committing genocide.

[ad_orientem]

Russia is a very flawed democracy, not a dictatorship. Putin has to face the electorate on a regular basis. I'm not arguing against the right to fight for freedom, just asking if it's worth the huge cost in lives. How do you know that "Russia will genocide Ukraine"?

Because they're already fucking doing it in the places they occupy. As for Putin, yes, he is a dictator in all but name, unless, of course, you believe Russian elections have any sort of credibility.

The only just peace is one where Ukraine regains every inch of occupied land and Russia is held to account for its crimes (reparations, war crimes trials, an acceptance of collective responsibility and, ultimately, decolonisation). Otherwise you're just rewarding aggression and laying the ground for more aggression in the future.

[ad_orientem]

The new 2014 one wasn't, hence the civil war. The 2018 one was elected on the basis that the Minsk Agreement would be implemented.

Russia invaded in 2014. There was no "civil war".