Arming the Ukrainians

[jeremyp]

Russia is a very flawed democracy, not a dictatorship. Putin has to face the electorate on a regular basis.

But he never loses.

The USSR also used to have regular elections. You wouldn't call that a democracy.

I'm not arguing against the right to fight for freedom, just asking if it's worth the huge cost in lives.

You shouldn't be asking us keyboard warriors sitting comfortably in our homes in Britain, you should be asking the people who would be subject to the Russian jackboot id they surrendered.

How do you know that "Russia will genocide Ukraine"?

They are already doing it.

[SteveH]

They are already doing it. [Committing genocide.]

When, where and how?

[jeremyp]

When, where and how?

In the last couple of years.

In the occupied areas.

By killing Ukrainians and/or deporting them to Russia for reeducation.

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/3859439-a-year-on-we-have-clear-evidence-of-genocide-in-ukraine/

[Spud]

So anyone can threaten to take over another country, and you think the other country should agree.

Yes, if it's clear they can't prevent it doing so.

[Outrider]

Yes, if it's clear they can't prevent it doing so.

You've been calling for it in Ukraine, though, where it's readily apparent that they can prevent it happening.

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Yes, if it's clear they can't prevent it doing so.

Is that clear in Ukraine?

[Nearly Sane]

And the sort off thing that happens in Russia


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67437171

[ad_orientem]

Yes, if it's clear they can't prevent it doing so.

So you believe might is right?

[Aruntraveller]

Yes, if it's clear they can't prevent it doing so.

I should be astonished that you think this. However, I have become so accustomed to your lack of critical thinking, well any thinking, that I am not.

So we just consign Taiwan to China then.

We should have left Poland to Hitler unchallenged. (Godwinesque)

You are presumably calm about the possibility of Putin moving into other neighbouring countries that are smaller and less able to defend themselves.

I bet you think the British Empire was absolutely spiffing and just grand for everyone concerned.

Fuck me but you take my breath away. And not in a good way.

[Nearly Sane]

'Swimming rivers and faking illness to escape Ukraine’s draft'

I have a lot of sympathy with them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67120904

[Spud]

In the last couple of years.

In the occupied areas.

By killing Ukrainians and/or deporting them to Russia for reeducation.

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/3859439-a-year-on-we-have-clear-evidence-of-genocide-in-ukraine/

Genocide is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." (Google's English dictionary)
Where is the evidence that Russia has tried to destroy the Ukrainian nation?

[Spud]

I should be astonished that you think this. However, I have become so accustomed to your lack of critical thinking, well any thinking, that I am not.

So we just consign Taiwan to China then.

We should have left Poland to Hitler unchallenged. (Godwinesque)

You are presumably calm about the possibility of Putin moving into other neighbouring countries that are smaller and less able to defend themselves.

I bet you think the British Empire was absolutely spiffing and just grand for everyone concerned.

Fuck me but you take my breath away. And not in a good way.

If you are so concerned about Ukraine or about the threat of Russia marching across Europe then why aren't you fighting with the Ukrainians?
Why are you astonished that I think that military neutrality and surrendering two oblasts (as per Russia's original demand) would have been better than the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians trying and failing to take back that territory and Crimea?

[Aruntraveller]

If you are so concerned about Ukraine or about the threat of Russia marching across Europe then why aren't you fighting with the Ukrainians?

Because I'm 67 fucking years old.

Because it would never have ended with the two oblasts as well you know.

Because you cannot be militarily neutral when another country invades your own country.

Because you need to look past the end of your nose and realise exactly what a murderous, bastard thug Putin is and that if he is left unchallenged a lot more than have died already will perish.

Why are you so invested in letting Putin achieve his illegal goals by murderous means?

[ad_orientem]

If you are so concerned about Ukraine or about the threat of Russia marching across Europe then why aren't you fighting with the Ukrainians?

Standard reply to a fucking stupid question: Too busy fucking your mum.

[ad_orientem]

Genocide is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." (Google's English dictionary)
Where is the evidence that Russia has tried to destroy the Ukrainian nation?

Yes, genocide. Just watch Russian media. The same people who watch it are now committing genocide in Ukraine.

[jeremyp]

Genocide is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group." (Google's English dictionary)
Where is the evidence that Russia has tried to destroy the Ukrainian nation?

Are you trying to take the piss?

Anyway, here is the UN definition of Genocide.

DEFINITION OF GENOCIDE IN THE CONVENTION:
Genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in
whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated
to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

I'm not sure if Russia is doing d, but it is certainly doing all of the others.

[Outrider]

If you are so concerned about Ukraine or about the threat of Russia marching across Europe then why aren't you fighting with the Ukrainians?

Because they don't appear to want extra bodies, they want strong allied economies applying economic sanctions on Russia and providing them with materiel.

Why are you astonished that I think that military neutrality and surrendering two oblasts (as per Russia's original demand) would have been better than the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians trying and failing to take back that territory and Crimea?

Because you appear to believe that Putin would just have stopped with those two Oblasts, just like he stopped after Crimea, and just like he stopped after Chechnya... why do you think Ukraine should countenance surrender when AT LEAST 20,000 Ukrainian children have been kidnapped and taken away to Russia? Why do you think Ukraine should surrender six million of it citizens to the dreck that is Russian life?

If you're so concerned about it why don't you go surrender to the Russians and see how you get on?

O.

[Nearly Sane]

The most wanted Eurovision winner


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67478220

[Nearly Sane]

Russia bombing Kyiv


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67529571

[Spud]

200,000 dead Ukrainians and counting. Same number maimed. Many more fled the country, all because they wanted to join NATO

[Nearly Sane]

200,000 dead Ukrainians and counting. Same number maimed. Many more fled the country, all because they wanted to join NATO

All because Russia murdered them

[jeremyp]

200,000 dead Ukrainians and counting. Same number maimed. Many more fled the country, all because they wanted to join NATO

Utter bullshit.

It's because they didn't want to be part of Greater Russia and also Putin needed a distraction from the shortcomings of his government.

[Nearly Sane]

Will there be an election next year?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67440357

[Spud]

Utter bullshit.

It's because they didn't want to be part of Greater Russia and also Putin needed a distraction from the shortcomings of his government.

The Ukrainians may have thought Putin wanted them to be part of greater Russia, but if that had been the case why did Russia use only 100,000 men for the initial phase of the operation? To take the whole of Ukraine would have required a much bigger army and also preparation by bombardment like the US did when it invaded Iraq.
Well, clearly Russia expected that the army they brought would be enough to press Ukraine into agreeing to its terms  (the central one of which was permanent neutrality).
In the interview in the above link, he also implies that Boris Johnson persuaded them not to sign, saying "let's just fight". So Ukraine was clearly influenced by Johnson, and obviously would not be able to fight without NATO support, so NATO is partly responsible for the catastrophic loss of life.

[Maeght]

The Ukrainians may have thought Putin wanted them to be part of greater Russia, but if that had been the case why did Russia use only 100,000 men for the initial phase of the operation? To take the whole of Ukraine would have required a much bigger army and also preparation by bombardment like the US did when it invaded Iraq.
Well, clearly Russia expected that the army they brought would be enough to press Ukraine into agreeing to its terms  (the central one of which was permanent neutrality).
In the interview in the above link, he also implies that Boris Johnson persuaded them not to sign, saying "let's just fight". So Ukraine was clearly influenced by Johnson, and obviously would not be able to fight without NATO support, so NATO is partly responsible for the catastrophic loss of life.

They were aiming for regime change initially. Under a different pro Russian regime they would be essentially part of greater Russia. They thought the Ukrainian people would want to be part of greater Russia.