Arming the Ukrainians

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Before I commit fully to a take on this, did he qualufy Russian in any way? Adult? Soldier? Soldier involved in Ukariane invasion?

I assume he's referring to occupiers, seeing this was addressed to Ukrainian special forces. Still, who knows? Former Rada member Kiva, a traitor who fled to Russia on the eve of the full scale invasion, was found dead in a pool of blood in Moscow today. He got his wages. All those who actively work for the war, whether in Ukraine or not, should not feel safe.

[Nearly Sane]

I assume he's referring to occupiers, seeing this was addressed to Ukrainian special forces. Still, who knows? Former Rada member Kiva, a traitor who fled to Russia on the eve of the full scale invasion, was found dead in a pool of blood in Moscow today. He got his wages. All those who actively work for the war, whether in Ukraine or not, should not feel safe.

Let's for the sake of sanity assume he meant something like that. Then he wants to commit war crimes. It's not 'based' unless we take that to mean psychopathic thug.

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Let's for the sake of sanity assume he meant something like that. Then he wants to commit war crimes. It's not 'based' unless we take that to mean psychopathic thug.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

[Nearly Sane]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

He wants to murder prison conscripts by individual attack purely to kill them. That would be a war crime.

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He wants to murder prison conscripts by individual attack purely to kill them. That would be a war crime.

They should have fucking stayed in prison then! Смерть ворогам!

[SqueakyVoice]

Either I am or everybody  is misreading this.

There should not be a single Russian who goes to bed without wondering if his throat will be cut in the middle of the night — U.S. 🇺🇸 General Mark Milley

(From twitter)
Reading the article from the earlier link I posted,

Soon they’ll be back on the front lines fighting the Russians, he (Gen Milley) told them, ...

As chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Milley has spent the better part of the last two years rallying allies to provide weapons for the Ukrainian forces.

My reading is that it's any Putin 'no' men who should worry about being murdered (as order by Putin.)?Edited, back to presumptive texting again...

[Nearly Sane]

Either I am or everybody  is misreading this.(From twitter)
Reading the article from the earlier link I posted, My reading is that it's any Putin 'no' men who should worry about being murdered (as order by Putin.)?Edited, back to presumptive texting again...

Don't see how in talking to the Ukrainians who he supports, he's not talking about Ukrainian action to create fear in Russians.

[Spud]

First they came for the Ukraine, but I was not Ukrainian so I stood by... You're an apologist for an atrocity.

And why did they 'come for Ukraine'?. Because they wouldn't stand by.
https://youtu.be/2AqijdHFyOM?si=LmRQFdLlXkfbdCf4

[Outrider]

And why did they 'come for Ukraine'?. Because they wouldn't stand by.
https://youtu.be/2AqijdHFyOM?si=LmRQFdLlXkfbdCf4

Wouldn't stand by and let Ukraine make decisions for Ukraine that Vladimir Putin didn't like.

O.

[Dicky Underpants]

Putin is popular and their economy is good, despite sanctions. China has committed to supporting Russia, iirc.
So while I can understand your reasoning, I think strategically it is flawed.
As for Putin being a bully. He comes across as a gentleman in interviews on "Ukraine on Fire". Comparing him with the thugs who led the Maidan revolt, I think there is a side to the story you are ignoring, and this is continually manifest in the current shelling of civilians in Donetsk, and the lies used by Ukrainian politicians to win sympathy.
Yes I know the Russian army has some foul characters in it but there are also a lot of gentlemen. I will stop there as don't want to get into a massive argument with you.

"Putin is popular and their economy is good, despite sanctions." So what the fuck is he doing sucking up to Kim Yong Un of N. Korea, of all people?

Oh, he's a "gentleman" is he? That's what that Austrian ex-minister Karin Kneissel said to Steve Rosenberg. Let me remind you that Hitler was a dog-lover and a vegetarian.

[Aruntraveller]

And why did they 'come for Ukraine'?. Because they wouldn't stand by.
https://youtu.be/2AqijdHFyOM?si=LmRQFdLlXkfbdCf4

Even for you, that makes no sense.

[Spud]

So you believe might is right?

No, but if everyone decided to fight against anyone who did evil against them, people would be fighting all the time. "Do not repay evil for evil". Don't you think it's better to resist the temptation to retaliate?

Even for you, that makes no sense.

Did you watch the video? It's in Russian but it seems to be saying that Russia is fighting fascism, for which it shows evidence. The one clip with English subtitles is from a BBC report on nationalists who took part in the Maidan riots. The man said that anyone who 'likes Russia should move to Russia". The people with him were brandishing guns - what does that tell us?

[Spud]

Let me remind you that Hitler was a dog-lover and a vegetarian

Putin doesn't want to invade NATO countries - he doesn't have the military capability. Unlike Hitler who tried to occupy pretty much the whole of Europe.

[Outrider]

No, but if everyone decided to fight against anyone who did evil against them, people would be fighting all the time. "Do not repay evil for evil". Don't you think it's better to resist the temptation to retaliate?

Defending yourself is not retaliation, it's (and the clue is in the name) self-defence. If every slight was met with violence that would be an issue, but this is not a disproportionate response. And you're still putting all the onus on Ukraine not to defend itself and failing manifestly to call out Russia's entirely unwarranted aggression, it's third invasion in a little over a decade.

Did you watch the video? It's in Russian but it seems to be saying that Russia is fighting fascism, for which it shows evidence.

It's in Russian, and as I don't speak Russian it could, frankly, be a distraught Disney fan bemoaning the race-switching of a mermaid. Even it does show someone claiming that Russia is fighting fascism, that doesn't make it true, even if we trust that she believes that, which without any more context than Russian's well-established if poorly implemented propoganda attempts are anything to go by, we can't.

The one clip with English subtitles is from a BBC report on nationalists who took part in the Maidan riots. The man said that anyone who 'likes Russia should move to Russia". The people with him were brandishing guns - what does that tell us?

That they're prepared to defend themselves against a hostile invasion by the dictator of a failed state propping up his regime would be my first guess.

Putin doesn't want to invade NATO countries - he doesn't have the military capability.

He doesn't appear to have the military capability of invading Ukraine the second time, but he's done that again. On what basis are you asserting that he doesn't want to invade NATO countries, the fact that he's said so, just like he said he had no intention of going into Chechnya before he invaded Chechnya, or the way he said he wasn't going to invade Ukraine the first time before he invaded Ukraine, or the fact he said he had no intention of invading Ukraine a second time and he we are.

Unlike Hitler who tried to occupy pretty much the whole of Europe.

Like Hitler who signed non-aggression pacts and ratified borders that he subsequently rolled over regardless? Like that Hitler? Sound familiar?

Like the Hitler who also had apologists making excuses and trying to shift the blame. Should we call you Lord Spud-Spud now?

O.

[Aruntraveller]

Russia isn't fighting fascism. It is behaving as a fascist state would.

"A fascist state is a system of government led by a dictator who typically rules by forcefully and often violently suppressing opposition and criticism, controlling all industry and commerce, and promoting nationalism and often racism"

Does any of that ring any bells at all in your head?

Or do you conveniently forget the number of people who have fallen out of windows, been poisoned, disappeared or otherwise made invisible?

Do you forget the total control of the media that Putin has established?

Do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Your answers to this are No, Yes, Yes, No.

You believe every lie of the Russian state. You are beyond help.

[Spud]

Defending yourself is not retaliation, it's (and the clue is in the name) self-defence. If every slight was met with violence that would be an issue, but this is not a disproportionate response.

Self-defence is instinctive but ultimately has to be consciously controlled.

[Spud]

That they're prepared to defend themselves against a hostile invasion by the dictator of a failed state propping up his regime would be my first guess.

It suggests they wanted to ethnically cleanse Ukraine.
The interview was (posted) 28 Feb 2014 after Maidan.
https://youtu.be/5SBo0akeDMY?si=hpugj7FIqwponHHP

[jeremyp]

Self-defence is instinctive but ultimately has to be consciously controlled.

Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.

[jeremyp]

It suggests they wanted to ethnically cleanse Ukraine.

That is exactly what Russia wants to do.

[ad_orientem]

Putin doesn't want to invade NATO countries - he doesn't have the military capability. Unlike Hitler who tried to occupy pretty much the whole of Europe.

No? You could have fooled me! Russia has only spent billions on a disinformation campaign, trying to undermine the institutions of the West, including NATO. He now has the likes of Orban, Trump (and his MAGA morons) doing his work.

[ad_orientem]

Did you watch the video? It's in Russian but it seems to be saying that Russia is fighting fascism, for which it shows evidence. The one clip with English subtitles is from a BBC report on nationalists who took part in the Maidan riots. The man said that anyone who 'likes Russia should move to Russia". The people with him were brandishing guns - what does that tell us?

And not a word of it is to believed. Russia only spent the last 10-15 years on another disinformation campaign to paint Ukrainians as Nazis as a pretext for an invasion. This kind of thing is part of Russia's M.O. (like the shelling of Mainila before the Winter War, or the apartment bombs before the second Chechen War).There's plenty of evidence of this (which I have given in this thread before). Things like unusual spikes in internet searches of "Ukrainian Nazis" before both invasions and the countless photoshopped images, not forgetting the Maidan "coup" and the 8 years of bombing Donbas myth. The only Nazis in Ukraine are Russians.

https://novelscience.substack.com/p/stories-about-ukrainian-nazis-were

https://twitter.com/MuKappa/status/1598132925085913088?s=19

https://twitter.com/Igor_from_Kyiv_/status/1568902366262398976?s=19

https://twitter.com/YLEKuronen/status/1680816117801951234?s=19

https://twitter.com/zAuroraBorealis/status/1617888014163935235?s=19

[Outrider]

Self-defence is instinctive but ultimately has to be consciously controlled.

Irrelevant. We're considering whether it's justifiable or unjustifiable.

It suggests they wanted to ethnically cleanse Ukraine. The interview was (posted) 28 Feb 2014 after Maidan. https://youtu.be/5SBo0akeDMY?si=hpugj7FIqwponHHP

Let's presume, for a moment, that it does suggest that. Do you trust that it's genuine, given Russia's well-established propaganda and misinformation campaigns. Given that we've seen no reliable evidence, nothing from any neutral parties, to suggest that anything about Ukraine's activities would have supported that goal, and plenty to suggest that it's Russia with a goal of eliminating the concept of independent statehood from the former Soviet countries, this doesn't seem credible.

O.

[Spud]

No? You could have fooled me! Russia has only spent billions on a disinformation campaign, trying to undermine the institutions of the West, including NATO. He now has the likes of Orban, Trump (and his MAGA morons) doing his work.

How does that show that he wants to invade NATO countries?

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How does that show that he wants to invade NATO countries?

By weakening NATO. Trump has already threatened to leave, and Orban is Putin's bitch.

[Spud]

Irrelevant. We're considering whether it's justifiable or unjustifiable.

Let's presume, for a moment, that it does suggest that. Do you trust that it's genuine, given Russia's well-established propaganda and misinformation campaigns. Given that we've seen no reliable evidence, nothing from any neutral parties, to suggest that anything about Ukraine's activities would have supported that goal, and plenty to suggest that it's Russia with a goal of eliminating the concept of independent statehood from the former Soviet countries, this doesn't seem credible.

O.

If you watch the bit at 4:49 on the video in #1407, it shows a school in Kiev some time around March/April 2014, where a big crowd of kids is shouting "hang the Russians" while jumping up and down.
Evidence that they still have the goal of ethnic cleansing would be the continual indiscriminate shelling of Donesk civilians. Of course there isn't evidence of ethnic cleansing having directly taken place, because it was checked after Maidan by pro-Russian Separatists supported by Russia.