Arming the Ukrainians

[Spud]

By weakening NATO. Trump has already threatened to leave, and Orban is Putin's bitch.

That could just be to enable Russia to achieve it's stated aims, though.

[Outrider]

If you watch the bit at 4:49 on the video in #1407, it shows a school in Kiev some time around March/April 2014, where a big crowd of kids is shouting "hang the Russians" while jumping up and down.

I wonder what might have prompted that outburst just following the first Russian invasion of Ukraine, by way of their annexation of Crimea.

Evidence that they still have that they have the goal of ethnic cleansing would be the continual indiscriminate shelling of Donesk civilians. Of course there isn't evidence of it having directly taken place, because it was checked after Maidan by pro-Russian Separatists supported by Russia.

'Continual', but the last example you can cite (unreliable as that might be) was in 2014...

The BBC doesn't report on this as it is only interested when Ukrainian civilians are hit by Russia.

I see. And CNN doesn't report on it either. Or Al Jazheera. Or the ABC in Australia? Even Fox 'News' isn't parroting this industrial grade horeshit. In fact, no-one except the Russian propaganda machine 'reports' on this... what could we possible infer from the fact that the only place this appears is in the reportage of the lying propaganda arm of a failed state attempting post hoc rationalisations of imperialist invasion of a neighbour?

O.

[Spud]

By weakening NATO. Trump has already threatened to leave, and Orban is Putin's bitch.

Hungary is landlocked and relies on Russian gas etc, so it would obviously not allow weapons to pass to ukraine through it.

[Outrider]

Hungary is landlocked and relies on Russian gas etc, so it would obviously not allow weapons to pass to ukraine through it.

Huge swathes of Europe were reliant on Russian gas at the start of the conflict, that hasn't stopped them arming Ukraine. Hungary, under Orban, has his own vested interests in splitting EU and NATO opinion on issues. Whilst the financial impact of gas supplies is, undoubtedly, one of those issues (especially as the EU continues to hold up funds as a result of Orban's authoritarian legislative measures) it's not the only reason.

O.

[Spud]

I wonder what might have prompted that outburst just following the first Russian invasion of Ukraine, by way of their annexation of Crimea.

The Russian annexation of Crimea could have provoked it, yes.
There is daily reporting of shelling of civilian areas in Tass website, backed up by independent journalists.
Would Tass make these up every day?
The reason the nationalists are characterized as neo-nazis is because even though they are a small minority, they enjoy killing (admitted by Andre Biletsky) and use extreme violence to achieve their aims. So they have a large influence over the country. They are rounding up anyone they like and send them to the front line, they also form anti-retreat squads.

[Spud]

Huge swathes of Europe were reliant on Russian gas at the start of the conflict, that hasn't stopped them arming Ukraine. Hungary, under Orban, has his own vested interests in splitting EU and NATO opinion on issues. Whilst the financial impact of gas supplies is, undoubtedly, one of those issues (especially as the EU continues to hold up funds as a result of Orban's authoritarian legislative measures) it's not the only reason.

O.

Right. So Russia wants to do business with Europe, not invade it as Biden claims in his latest attempt to persuade Congress to continue to fund the war.

[jeremyp]

If you watch the bit at 4:49 on the video in #1407, it shows a school in Kiev some time around March/April 2014, where a big crowd of kids is shouting "hang the Russians" while jumping up and down.

A bunch of kids shouting something in Ukrainian that the video translates to "hang the Russians".

Evidence that they still have the goal of ethnic cleansing would be the continual indiscriminate shelling of Donesk civilians.

It' Russia doing the indiscriminate shelling.

Of course there isn't evidence of ethnic cleansing having directly taken place, because it was checked after Maidan by pro-Russian Separatists supported by Russia.

They covered up the ethnic cleansing by Russia?

[Dicky Underpants]

They are rounding up anyone they like and send them to the front line, they also form anti-retreat squads.

You sure you're talking about Ukrainian nationalists here? "Rounding up anyone and sending them to the front line" was a standard policy of the Soviet Union, and Putin has cold-bloodedly followed suit. In the former case, the free world actually benefited from this policy to beat the German Nazis. I doubt anyone is likely to benefit from Putin's implementation of it; neither Russian, Ukrainian nor the rest of the world.

[Outrider]

The Russian annexation of Crimea could have provoked it, yes.

Could have...

There is daily reporting of shelling of civilian areas in Tass website, backed up by independent journalists.

Which independent journalists? Independent as in 'not formally employed by Tass' or from a reputable news agency?

Would Tass make these up every day?

It's their fucking job! They are the propaganda arm of the Russian government, it's what they're paid to do.

The reason the nationalists are characterized as neo-nazis is because even though they are a small minority, they enjoy killing (admitted by Andre Biletsky) and use extreme violence to achieve their aims.

So not 'nationalism' which might justify the 'nationalist' tag, nor in any particular way related to fascism or Nazism, then. Even if it were a reliable claim.

So they have a large influence over the country. They are rounding up anyone they like and send them to the front line, they also form anti-retreat squads.

He asserted, devoid of any reputable source of information whatsoever.

Right. So Russia wants to do business with Europe, not invade it as Biden claims in his latest attempt to persuade Congress to continue to fund the war.

Putin desperately needs foreign currency to prop up his failing economy, yes. It's why he's going cap in hand to China, North Korea, anyone that might give him something so that he can pretend his grand military plan is running on schedule. That he wants people in Europe to pay in him money doesn't mean he doesn't at the same time want to invade parts of Europe. Like most Europeans he realises that Europe is not a singular entity, but a region.

O.

[ad_orientem]

Hungary is landlocked and relies on Russian gas etc, so it would obviously not allow weapons to pass to ukraine through it.

Many countries that relied on Russian gas have allowed weapons to pass. My guess is Russia has promised Transcarpathia to Orban in secret.

[Nearly Sane]

EU to open membership talks with Ukraine and Moldova.

Interesting


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67722252

[ad_orientem]

EU to open membership talks with Ukraine and Moldova.

Interesting


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67722252

Long way to go but still excellent.

[Nearly Sane]

Hungary blocks EU aid to Ukraine


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67724357

[ad_orientem]

Hungary blocks EU aid to Ukraine


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67724357

Something needs to be done about Hungary. Maybe it's time for the EU to invoke article 7.

[Spud]

You sure you're talking about Ukrainian nationalists here?

Yes, there's video evidence of people being kidnapped. This is a capital offence in the Bible.

"Rounding up anyone and sending them to the front line" was a standard policy of the Soviet Union, and Putin has cold-bloodedly followed suit.

They have compulsory conscription between 18-30 I think, with penalties for dodging it, but afaik they don't kidnap people do they?

In the former case, the free world actually benefited from this policy to beat the German Nazis. I doubt anyone is likely to benefit from Putin's implementation of it; neither Russian, Ukrainian nor the rest of the world.

"With Ukraine’s military facing mounting deaths and a stalemate on the battlefield, army recruiters have become increasingly aggressive in their efforts to replenish the ranks, in some cases pulling men off the streets and whisking them to recruiting centers using intimidation and even physical force." - New York Times

[Outrider]

Yes, there's video evidence of people being kidnapped. This is a capital offence in the Bible.

Who gives a shit what your book of fairy stories says, it's the agreed upon principles of warfare that apply. I presume you're talking about the approximately 1.9 million Ukrainian's 'deported' to Russia, including over 300,000 children? Link

They have compulsory conscription between 18-30 I think, with penalties for dodging it, but afaik they don't kidnap people do they?

Russia recently passed a bill increasing the upper age limit for conscription from 27 to 30, so yes that's the age range from January 1st next year. As to kidnap, I'm not aware of Russians being kidnapped - prevented from leaving the country if they're not rich enough to bribe the officials - but there are reports of kidnapped Ukrainian orphans being forced into service. Link 1 Link 2

There are opposition members in Russia being forcibly conscripted, but I'm not sure enforcing the regulations entail 'kidnapping' as such, despite the headlines to some of these depressing stories. Link

Any luck with that admission that Putin's ultimately at fault for his continued invasion of neighbouring countries, or are you still liberally spreading the blame around Ukraine and the West?

O.

[Nearly Sane]

Bizarre

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67729343

[Spud]

Who gives a shit what your book of fairy stories says, it's the agreed upon principles of warfare that apply. I presume you're talking about the approximately 1.9 million Ukrainian's 'deported' to Russia, including over 300,000 children? Link

Russia recently passed a bill increasing the upper age limit for conscription from 27 to 30, so yes that's the age range from January 1st next year. As to kidnap, I'm not aware of Russians being kidnapped - prevented from leaving the country if they're not rich enough to bribe the officials - but there are reports of kidnapped Ukrainian orphans being forced into service. Link 1 Link 2

There are opposition members in Russia being forcibly conscripted, but I'm not sure enforcing the regulations entail 'kidnapping' as such, despite the headlines to some of these depressing stories. Link

Any luck with that admission that Putin's ultimately at fault for his continued invasion of neighbouring countries, or are you still liberally spreading the blame around Ukraine and the West?

O.

Deportation wouldn't be right, unless the people in Donbass weren't safe due to constant risk of being hit by Ukrainian bombs.
The principles of warfare do not include shooting your own soldiers if they retreat in battle or your population if they refuse to be conscripted.
I'm not condoning Russia for their war crimes, of which I know there are plenty, I'm just pointing out that Ukraine is equally guilty of them. For evidence, see Patrick Lancaster (particularly his latest video),. As per my position at the start of the war, Ukraine should have surrendered regardless of whether Russia was justified in invading.

[ad_orientem]

Deportation wouldn't be right, unless the people in Donbass weren't safe due to constant risk of being hit by Ukrainian bombs.
The principles of warfare do not include shooting your own soldiers if they retreat in battle or your population if they refuse to be conscripted.
I'm not condoning Russia for their war crimes, of which I know there are plenty, I'm just pointing out that Ukraine is equally guilty of them. For evidence, see Patrick Lancaster (particularly his latest video),. As per my position at the start of the war, Ukraine should have surrendered regardless of whether Russia was justified in invading.

LOL! Patrick "the vatnik" Lancaster. He's a Russian propagandist and reports staged attrocities. I've told you before. He's a tool!

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/02/28/exploiting-cadavers-and-faked-ieds-experts-debunk-staged-pre-war-provocation-in-the-donbas/

[Outrider]

Deportation wouldn't be right, unless the people in Donbass weren't safe due to constant risk of being hit by Ukrainian bombs.

Even if anyone other than you believed that horse-shit claim, you still don't deport people from their own country to another, you perhaps offer them sanctuary, or you advise them to move elsewhere within their own country.

The principles of warfare do not include shooting your own soldiers if they retreat in battle or your population if they refuse to be conscripted.

I've no reliable evidence that it's happening at all, but that said.. the rules of war dictate how you treat the opposition, not your own. Your own laws dictate how people should be treated. I'd disagree with it if it were happening, I'm not convinced that it is, certainly not to any significant extent.

I'm not condoning Russia for their war crimes, of which I know there are plenty, I'm just pointing out that Ukraine is equally guilty of them.

How many children has Ukraine stolen? How many environmental catastrophes has Ukraine caused by blowing up dams? How many nuclear power stations has Ukraine jeopardised? How many forced deportations has Ukraine undertaken? How many schools and hospitals has Ukraine TARGETTED. Fuck off with your lies about false equivalency.

As per my position at the start of the war, Ukraine should have surrendered regardless of whether Russia was justified in invading.

You just can't bring yourself to actually say it, can you - Russia has no justification, just say it. As to whether anyone should roll over and accept that autocratic, corrupt rule of a serially-expansionist, hostile warmonger... what is that going to achieve? Do you think Putin will stop? Do you think fair laws will be applied by a just government? How's that going in Ossetia, right now? How are things in Chechnya?

O.

[jeremyp]

Deportation wouldn't be right, unless the people in Donbass weren't safe due to constant risk of being hit by Ukrainian bombs.

The people of Donbas aren't safe because there is a Russian invasion force on their land.

The principles of warfare do not include shooting your own soldiers if they retreat in battle or your population if they refuse to be conscripted.

But Russians do it. How about that?

I'm not condoning Russia for their war crimes,

I'd use the word "excusing" rather than "condoning". You excuse the Russians. You are an apologist for Russian aggression.

[ad_orientem]

Another strategic win for Putin. Lol!

https://yle.fi/a/74-20065110

Just signed a few moments ago.

[ad_orientem]

https://yle.fi/a/74-20065457

A clear provocation, which might leave us no choice but to start our own SMO. Lol!

[ad_orientem]

Bizare to say the least.

https://twitter.com/meduza_en/status/1736800497418612894?s=19

[ad_orientem]

A tough watch but a must watch.

https://20daysinmariupol.com/