Author Topic: Arming the Ukrainians  (Read 109488 times)

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1500 on: January 08, 2024, 09:08:06 PM »
I am not saying it won't, only that the conflicting claims about them attacking NATO territory show that nobody knows whether they would or not. Your suggestion of giving Ukraine long range missiles won't work, it will just be a pr stunt to make it look as though Ukraine can win, and eventually Ukraine's manpower will dry up. The only other options are for NATO to collectively defeat Russia, which it doesn't have the stomach for, or to negotiate and see what happens. I don't believe Russia would want to extend the war into NATO territory, it only wants to keep NATO off it's front doorstep


As I've said then, it was never about Nato expansion. Re: Finland. Russia just wanted to wage a genocidal war of aggression against Ukraine. All the more reason to make sure Ukraine wins. You're full of shit!
« Last Edit: January 09, 2024, 04:18:23 AM by ad_orientem »
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Outrider

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1501 on: January 09, 2024, 03:42:22 PM »
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Russia's actions will be influenced by the US and NATO's actions; we know this to be true because, as I previously noted in this thread, after it was announced in 2008 that Ukraine would one day join NATO, the then US ambassador to Moscow William Burns warned that this could provoke Russia to intervene militarily. His warning went unheeded and what he predicted, happened
https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2022/02/27/us-nato-expansion-ukraine-russia-intervene/

Russia was eyeing invasion as soon as Ukraine moved away from being a puppet satellite state, that's why Ukraine was looking for military alliances. Russia pushed Ukraine towards NATO, just like it had previously done with much of Eastern Europe and like it has now down with Finland and Sweden. It wasn't that his warning went unheeded, it's that there was no way to avoid aggression, just the possibility of securing membership and allies before it could develop into the fundamentally inept invasion that we've seen.

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They would want a legally binding guarantee that Ukraine will not join NATO before they would hand Crimea back.

Who gives a shit what Russia wants?

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Also they would demand that the people of Crimea decide whether they want to be part of Ukraine again.

Is that the people they've shipped in to Crimea, or what's left of the people who were there when they illegally annexed the territory? Who would get to oversee this 'vote'?

See my last post.  NATO provoked Russia. It would therefore have to work out how to regain Russia's trust.

Russia doesn't need provocation, this is the third foreign territory it has invaded in the last 15 years (and the second time for one of them). NATO's EXISTENCE is considered a provocation by Russian media which is just looking for post hoc rationalisations of its imperialism.

No-one needs Russia's trust, they need to trust that Russia is afraid of provoking a first world military and so have appropriate alliances in places to deter aggression.

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Russia perceives encirclement.

No 'Russia' perceives domestic discontent and military weakness, and tries to counter both with a jingoistic war to secure a buffer zone at a more territorially defensive area.

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Thing is, the West will not give Ukraine what it needs.

It has been so far. Sure as hell Russia won't give Ukraine what it needs.

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Read about how Zedekiah turned to Egypt at the time of the Babylonian invasion.

I think Aragorn's convincing of Theoden to take the Rohirrim to Gondor is more applicable - and a much better book.

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The West needs to repent of it's perverted values, then there will be peace.

Oh, it's a righteous invasion to suppress perversion... fuck off you knobstacle.

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There is confusion as to whether Russia would invade a NATO ally; Biden says (to justify continuing to send weapons to Ukraine) they will, if they are allowed to win in Ukraine. Yet Jeremy says they won't invade Ukraine if it joins NATO.

Well apparently, if you feel threatened by a foreign territory, you're absolutely fine with an invasion, so NATO should just pre-emptively invade Russia, right?

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Any provision of such missiles would only provoke Russia into a bigger response that would weaken Ukraine more.

How, exactly? Russia is barely supporting the clusterfuck of an invasion that it has mounted at the moment, and can't afford to buy any better munitions than what North Korea is giving away - how do you think they're going to step this up?

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The only way to defeat Russia would be by using stealth fighters and bombers which would require Western pilots.

Or by securing further commitment, say from the other BRIC nations on applying the economic sanctions - not easy, in the current climate.

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That would risk nuclear war which the West would lose.

Which everyone would lose.

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The only way to achieve peace is to agree to Russia's terms and trust that it will not invade further territories.

Or to support Ukraine which has been doing adequately with outdated gear and minimal training on new equipment - that training is becoming more influential and will allow Ukraine to even better utilise the equipment currently available as well as future provision of potentially more modern firepower.

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Although its Western border is technically already encircled, Crimea seems to be a doorway that it will not allow to be closed, thus Russia will not give it up. William Burns predicted this in 2008.

They don't have to 'give it up' they can be unceremoniously kicked back through it.

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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1502 on: January 09, 2024, 03:50:34 PM »
I am not saying it won't, only that the conflicting claims about them attacking NATO territory show that nobody knows whether they would or not.
We now know they wouldn't because it has been demonstrated that they lack the military ability to take on NATO.

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Your suggestion of giving Ukraine long range missiles won't work, it will just be a pr stunt to make it look as though Ukraine can win
You better hope that Ukraine can win because, if Russia wins, the genocide will be appalling.

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Russia ... only wants to keep NATO off it's front doorstep

Well it failed at that when Finland joined NATO. Good job Putin.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1503 on: January 11, 2024, 09:37:51 PM »
We now know they wouldn't because it has been demonstrated that they lack the military ability to take on NATO.
So, to clarify, you don't agree with Biden that if we let Putin win then he will attack a NATO member?

Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1504 on: January 12, 2024, 07:20:51 AM »
'Britain to increase Ukraine support to £2.5bn, Rishi Sunak announces'.

This will apparently create "an unshakeable hundred-year partnership between Ukraine and the UK". Some wee speech writer got all tumescent writing that.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67954152

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1505 on: January 12, 2024, 08:16:38 AM »
The chronic drunk Medvedev made yet another nuclear threat yesterday (something he will no doubt be made accountable for in the Hague one day). How many is it now? But this is how we know it's all bullshit. If they were serious, they would have done it by now. We could bomb Moscow into the fucking stoneage tomorrow, if we wanted to, and Russia would do fuck all, because all Russia knows how to do is attack those it perceives to be weak (like a true bully). The question then is why aren't we doing more to help Ukraine win?

https://twitter.com/MedvedevRussiaE/status/1745469837906739677?s=19
« Last Edit: January 12, 2024, 09:06:20 AM by ad_orientem »
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1506 on: January 12, 2024, 09:52:33 AM »
The chronic drunk Medvedev made yet another nuclear threat yesterday (something he will no doubt be made accountable for in the Hague one day). How many is it now? But this is how we know it's all bullshit. If they were serious, they would have done it by now. We could bomb Moscow into the fucking stoneage tomorrow, if we wanted to, and Russia would do fuck all, because all Russia knows how to do is attack those it perceives to be weak (like a true bully). The question then is why aren't we doing more to help Ukraine win?

https://twitter.com/MedvedevRussiaE/status/1745469837906739677?s=19

Because the Western leaders have a more nuanced view of the situation than you do and are better informed.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1507 on: January 12, 2024, 09:59:58 AM »
Because the Western leaders have a more nuanced view of the situation than you do and are better informed.

It's weakness, pure and simple. Russia knows only one language, force.
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jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1508 on: January 12, 2024, 10:11:31 AM »
It's weakness, pure and simple. Russia knows only one language, force.

I'm sure Russia does know only one language but NATO attacking Moscow will cause a global war even if it doesn't go nuclear.
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1509 on: January 12, 2024, 10:35:27 AM »
I'm sure Russia does know only one language but NATO attacking Moscow will cause a global war even if it doesn't go nuclear.

Despite my personal opinions regarding flattening Russian cities, that's not what I was saying. My point was, Russian threats are bollocks, therefore why are we still holding back regarding Ukraine military aid (especially long range missiles).
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1510 on: January 12, 2024, 10:48:06 AM »
Despite my personal opinions regarding flattening Russian cities, that's not what I was saying. My point was, Russian threats are bollocks, therefore why are we still holding back regarding Ukraine military aid (especially long range missiles).
Because such things are expensive, risk a further escalation, and are far from universally popular.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1511 on: January 12, 2024, 11:14:03 AM »
Because such things are expensive, risk a further escalation, and are far from universally popular.

We've learned nothing then. It seems Russia has better allies than Ukraine does. The "risking escalation" argument is bullshit. Russia launches daily attacks from Russian territory and we refuse to give Ukraine the means to stop them. That's Ukrainian blood on our hands.
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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1512 on: January 12, 2024, 11:19:49 AM »
We've learned nothing then. It seems Russia has better allies than Ukraine does. The "risking escalation" argument is bullshit. Russia launches daily attacks from Russian territory and we refuse to give Ukraine the means to stop them. That's Ukrainian blood on our hands.

And in order to stop having blood on our hands yoh want us to kill people. Hmm....

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1513 on: January 12, 2024, 11:24:13 AM »
And in order to stop having blood on our hands yoh want us to kill people. Hmm....

If you mean by "killing people" targeting the facilities and personnel Russia uses to launch its strikes on Ukraine, then yes!
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1514 on: January 12, 2024, 11:28:14 AM »
If you mean by "killing people" targeting the facilities and personnel Russia uses to launch its strikes on Ukraine, then yes!
And accepting that innocents will die, and that even those 'personnel' you kill will in many cases have no choice doing what they are doing. The myth of a clean war is a tale cherished by thugs.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1515 on: January 12, 2024, 11:40:12 AM »
And accepting that innocents will die, and that even those 'personnel' you kill will in many cases have no choice doing what they are doing. The myth of a clean war is a tale cherished by thugs.

Forgive me if I don't give a shit. Just like the mobik on the frontline being blown up by drones, they could of just fucking stayed at home. Zero fucks given!
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Nearly Sane

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1516 on: January 12, 2024, 11:41:54 AM »
Forgive me if I don't give a shit. Just like the mobik on the frontline being blown up by drones, they could of just fucking stayed at home. Zero fucks given!
Shiny shiny mirror.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1517 on: January 12, 2024, 11:49:34 AM »
Shiny shiny mirror.

Perhaps you can tell me why I should have any sympathy for a barbarian who went to loot, rape, torture and murder Ukrainians?
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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1518 on: January 12, 2024, 11:55:17 AM »
Perhaps you can tell me why I should have any sympathy for a barbarian who went to loot, rape, torture and murder Ukrainians?
Because dehumanising people like that is exactly the mirror of Russia.

ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1519 on: January 12, 2024, 12:04:46 PM »
Because dehumanising people like that is exactly the mirror of Russia.

They dehumanise themselves.
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Spud

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1520 on: January 12, 2024, 02:42:29 PM »
Perhaps you can tell me why I should have any sympathy for a barbarian who went to loot, rape, torture and murder Ukrainians?
These were the actions of some russian soldiers but not the purpose of the special military operation. 

I thought I would share a clip showing Evgeny Karas describing how the Ukrainian neo-Nazis made up a small proportion of the Maidan protests and how without their provocations the revolution wouldn't have happened.
See here from 15:30
(The video mistakes him for Andriy Biletsky).
This proves, since it comes from the horse's mouth, that the provocateurs weren't planted by the Berkut in order to give them an excuse to beat the protesters so hard that they didn't come back (as claimed in the documentary 'Winter on fire'). Rather, their presence was somehow initiated by the US to ensure its anti-russian agenda was achieved (as the documentary 'ukraine on fire' describes).

Perhaps if the protests had continued peacefully, the issues around the signing of the agreement with the EU would have been resolved.

It's those neo-Nazis who are the target of the Russians. Keep in mind that's the purpose of the Russian government, even if individual soldiers are raping and looting etc.

Also keep in mind what Jeremy said, that attacking  targets inside Russia will case a global war.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2024, 02:46:08 PM by Spud »

jeremyp

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1521 on: January 12, 2024, 02:55:48 PM »
My point was, Russian threats are bollocks,

No. Your opinion is that they are bollocks. Western leaders are probably better informed about the credibility of Russian threats than either of us.

And, even if they aren't, bombing civilian targets will not have the effect you want. In fact, it would be a propaganda windfall for Putin.
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Dicky Underpants

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1522 on: January 12, 2024, 04:09:21 PM »


It's those neo-Nazis who are the target of the Russians. Keep in mind that's the purpose of the Russian government, even if individual soldiers are raping and looting etc.



Ah yes, those disgusting neo-Nazis who formed at least 50% of the original population of Ukraine, and of whom the Jewish Zelensky is definitely one.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2024, 04:32:57 PM by Dicky Underpants »
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1523 on: January 12, 2024, 04:39:21 PM »
No. Your opinion is that they are bollocks. Western leaders are probably better informed about the credibility of Russian threats than either of us.

And, even if they aren't, bombing civilian targets will not have the effect you want. In fact, it would be a propaganda windfall for Putin.

Evidence shows that it's bollocks. How many of Russia's imaginary red lines have we crossed now with our help to Ukraine? First it was any help at all, then HIMARS, then tanks, then F-16's. Nothing! Why would it be any different for long range missiles? The Russian's are bullshitters!
« Last Edit: January 12, 2024, 04:56:50 PM by ad_orientem »
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ad_orientem

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Re: Arming the Ukrainians
« Reply #1524 on: January 12, 2024, 05:01:18 PM »
These were the actions of some russian soldiers but not the purpose of the special military operation. 

I thought I would share a clip showing Evgeny Karas describing how the Ukrainian neo-Nazis made up a small proportion of the Maidan protests and how without their provocations the revolution wouldn't have happened.
See here from 15:30
(The video mistakes him for Andriy Biletsky).
This proves, since it comes from the horse's mouth, that the provocateurs weren't planted by the Berkut in order to give them an excuse to beat the protesters so hard that they didn't come back (as claimed in the documentary 'Winter on fire'). Rather, their presence was somehow initiated by the US to ensure its anti-russian agenda was achieved (as the documentary 'ukraine on fire' describes).

Perhaps if the protests had continued peacefully, the issues around the signing of the agreement with the EU would have been resolved.

It's those neo-Nazis who are the target of the Russians. Keep in mind that's the purpose of the Russian government, even if individual soldiers are raping and looting etc.

Also keep in mind what Jeremy said, that attacking  targets inside Russia will case a global war.

Keep on regurgitating Russian lies. I wonder what it must be like to eat shit, Spud. Have you ever actually spoken to someone who was there? I have. Someone from Odesa.
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